Becoming The Black Male Therapist with Dr. Lawrence Jackson

Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:00:00]:

I mean, I will be honest, the field just doesn't have a lot of people of color. Right? And I think it's hard enough to find a black man or woman in the field. Not alone, multiple of them. There's so many times I would go to conferences, I'll look and I'd be like, there's not too many people that look like me. And then when I finally see somebody, it's like we give them the head nod, like, yo, you here too, man. I gotta holler at you later. Like, you know, I don't care if I saw him 20ft, yards to the right, I'm gonna find a way to break back, right? And so, like, how'd you get here? What's your experience? What does this look like? Right? And I think it also caused a lot of challenges, kind of as I kind of maticulated and grown throughout my career at different points. It definitely wasn't a lie. I definitely didn't see a lot.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:00:44]:

This is Heard Business School, where we sit down with private practice owners and industry experts to learn about the business of therapy together. I'm your host, Michael Fulwiler. Versatility isn't just a trait, it's a way of life for today's guest. Doctor Lawrence Jackson, affectionately known as Doctor J, is a licensed therapist and mental performance coach with a particular focus on athletes transitioning out of professional sports. Doctor Jackson began by honing his clinical skills as an assistant professor while balancing private practice on the side. His entrepreneurial spirit and knack for managing multiple roles led him to build a successful practice that extends its reach from local gyms to global virtual sessions. In today's conversation, Doctor Jackson shares his fascinating route from aspiring doctor to potential sex therapist to ultimately becoming The Black Male Therapist. We explore his creative strategies for client attraction, the authentic branding of Black Therapy Fridays and the importance of representation in the mental health field.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:01:45]:

Let's jump into my conversation with Doctor Lawrence Jackson. Enjoy. Doctor Lawrence Jackson, welcome to the show.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:01:54]:

Hey man. Good sir. Definitely happy to be here.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:01:58]:

Excited to have you. Affectionately known as Doctor J, which for our listeners who are not basketball fans, that's Julius Irving. So good company to be in.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:02:10]:

You know, I'm not as efficient as he is, especially not on a quarter or a field, but hopefully in this therapy room, I'm doing a little bit of something here and there.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:02:19]:

Definitely. So we connected on Instagram during the pandemic. I remember coming across your account, @theblackmaletherapist, which I loved what you were doing. You also had a content series at the time called Black Therapy Fridays. You were selling merch. I got a hoodie that I still have. I should have. Should have worn it today.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:02:39]:

When did you start The Black Male Therapist brand?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:02:43]:

I would say it was kind of a soft launch during school. And so I was working on my doctor at the time prior to pandemic, probably, like, 2018. And then I'm one of those people that, like, if I have something that's helpful or knowledgeable, I want to share, right? I want everybody to know. I want everybody to win. And so at the time, I was kind of heavy on socials, Twitter in particular. And so, like, I would learn things, or I would try to put things together, and I would be like, yo, did y'all know this? And I would share different things from time to time, and then not thinking that anybody really was paying too much attention to it or that was making a big deal. But I had one of my colleagues and friends reach out and be like, oh, this is good, but you just do it so sporadic. Like, sometimes I'm missing stuff.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:03:24]:

I gotta come back and find you. You should, like, pick a day and just drop everything, like Fridays or something, and call it, like, Black Fridays. And I was like, ooh, Black Therapy Fridays. And I was like, okay. So I think that's how it kind of came about. I think when we got into, especially during the pandemic and things like that bit prior to that, I think it became a little bit more prominent. I was making kind of small videos and kind of figuring out that, like, 140 characters wasn't enough to get the message across. If I can do it within 90 seconds or two or three minutes, sometimes even longer, it can be that much more effective, healthy, impactful, and so trying to explore those avenues.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:04:05]:

And so I say around 2018, 2019 is when it really kicked up even more and came more kind of formalized in that manner. And I think since then, it has been kind of growing. And I think pandemic really kind of heightened some things during that time is that, you know, social media and technology was the best way to connect with one another. And so it was another outlet, another place and platform that was able to do just that at a heightened area, at heightened time frame.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:04:31]:

Mental health and therapy is something that is talked about more now, especially on social media. I do feel like at that time, there were probably fewer people talking about mental health and therapy, I imagine, especially for black men. Was that your experience? Cause I feel like you were probably pretty early.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:04:52]:

I mean, I will be honest, the field just doesn't have a lot of people of color, right? And I think it's hard enough to find a black man or woman in the field. Not alone, multiple of them. There's so many times I would go to conferences, I'll look, and I'd be like, there's not too many people that look like me. And then when I finally see somebody, it's like we give them the head and I'm like, yo, are you here too? Gotta holla at you later. Like, you know, I don't care if I saw him 20ft yards to the right, I'm gonna find a way to break back, right? And so, like, how'd you get here? What's your experience? What does this look like? Right? And I think it also caused a lot of challenges, kind of as I kind of meticulated and grown throughout my career at different points. It definitely wasn't a lot. I definitely didn't see a lot. And so I think it further pushed the charge for me to want to do something because it wasn't like something that was heavily populated, but I recognized the importance of it and wanted to do the best I could to spread that message, spread that knowledge to those who may not be in those rooms and those spaces where that is being shared.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:05:51]:

Taking a step back, you got your masters from UNLV, got your PhD from Florida state. Why did you become a therapist? And in particular, why were you drawn to marriage and family therapy?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:06:07]:

I will be completely honest and say that marriage and family therapy was a hidden gem for me, right? I wasn't super aware of the field. I remember growing up, I either want to be a neuropediagic surgeon or a sex therapist. Don't know how those two align came to play, but I was like, I'm going to do either this or that, right? And at first, I was taking kind of the neuropediagic surgeon route. I went to Xavier University of Louisiana, which is an HBCU in New Orleans, right? And what they're known for, right, was the claim to fame as putting black individuals to medical school or dental school, their choice above any institution in the US, right? And so it was a perfect, like, place that if I wanted to be a physician, this is the gateway, right? Like, they really, like, almost breed physicians at a very high rate. And so I started there, and then I was in my junior year, and I was getting ready to, you know, take the MCAT and get ready to graduate. And I remember being, like, in microbiology and I hated it. I mean, I hated it and I just didn't do well, right, I failed my lab, and unfortunately, this wasn't the first lab I failed, right. And so I failed another lab, I think my freshman year, something like that.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:07:16]:

And Xavier was maybe different than some other institutions. Like, they were pretty strict, and so they're like, hey, you got two D's or lower, and in a lab election, doesn't matter. In your major, you got to sit a semester out, right? And so I was already kind of worried, like, man, I'm not going to graduate with my friends, so why not do something I really want to do? And at the time, I was taking a psych class, I really enjoyed it. And I'm just like, this is going to be a jump. And I know mom, pops, and everybody else not going to be happy about this, but I think I want to do this. And so I kind of made a decision that day when I was undecided major because I got kicked out my major, that I wasn't going to be undecided, that I decided something else. And then pretty much for that next year and a half, I just kind of followed the psych route. Right.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:08:01]:

And got really interested and really delve into that and just really loved and enjoyed it. But again, wanted to be a sex therapist, right?

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Michael Fulwiler [00:08:08]:

Yeah. I was going to ask what that's. I feel like not a lot of men going into undergrad want to be a sex therapist. Like, where do you think that came from?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:08:18]:

I think being unique, to your point, Mike, like, I recognize that, you know, kind of a supply and demand. If it's less supply, there'd be more demand. And then kind of, to your point, just not to many, maybe men that want to do this. Definitely not too many black men that want to do this. And so I was like, oh, this is a. This is a untapped population and a place where I can really thrive in. And so always kind of keeping that mindset. And so I kind of was thinking about that I had a colleague that was a few years ahead of me that kind of also wanted to do the same thing.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:08:48]:

And at that time, like, I was also very. I was too scared to ask for help, right. Or to gain more knowledge. I didn't want to feel like I didn't know what I was doing, that I was struggling in that capacity. And so what I end up doing is just kind of following her route. So she ended up going to Unlv. So I was like, well, I got to find a way to get to UNLV. And this is how she did.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:09:11]:

And she want to do the same thing I'm doing. And she says, a great institution. I know she's smart, I know she's intelligent. So why not go there, right? And at the time, Univ. Had doctor weeks, doctor hurl, and all these people that are known in kind of that sex therapy field as experts. And so it kind of was an easy transition. I recognize again what marriage and family therapy is, not even taking a class in that arena. But I quickly learned as I was getting there and during my first year that, you know, marriage and family therapy, systems theory, which is kind of the basis and foundation of couple and family therapy, is how I think and how I view the world around me.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:09:46]:

And it just made so much sense. And from that day forward, I just been kind of head forward all in to just being systemically, being a systemic thinker and looking at every lens and everything. From that standpoint, marriage and family therapy.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:10:01]:

Is all about relationships. And I imagine that translates to workplace relationships, to team relationships and sports. Right? So the training, I imagine, is transferable.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:10:12]:

Absolutely, yeah. I tell people all the time, I'm a relationship expert, right. And I say interpersonal relationships. I say teams, organizations, families, couples come to see me because they're trying to optimize the performance or improve our wellbeing, but also intrapersonal isolation within ourselves. We're not complicated individuals, just complex. And sometimes understanding the complexity of who we are help us figure out how to optimize that performance, too. Right. So recognizing that and seeing that from a relationship lens, whether it be between or within or owe it to couple family therapy or to systems theory, and I think it really has been helpful and beneficial for my career.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:10:44]:

So you go to UNLV. How do you end up at Florida State?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:10:49]:

So I go to UNLV. And as I was going through UNLV, right, again, it's couple of family therapy, marriage and family therapy. So we're talking about family, we're talking about all these things. And for me, I had a unique family, right? Like I was the youngest of four, but I kind of grew up as an only child. I had like a twelve or 13 year gap between me and my youngest sibling. So I didn't have, I had a lot of the components of a traditional family, but didn't look the same. And so in some of those ways, I wasn't able to relate to kind of certain topics, certain things. And so I had to find a way to make relatable for me.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:11:20]:

But I grew up playing sports, and so it was easy for me to be able to see some of those transferable skills and those not transferable skills, transferable concepts between sports, you know, hierarchies, roles, responsibilities, relationships and families. And so I kind of got that thought process that, like, man, like, what happened if sports picked this up? Again, this is 2014, kind of before. I think, in a lot of ways, some of these elite sports programs really took serious the benefits of having a mental health or mental performance provider on staff. And so I kind of thought, like, man, I really want to do this. I want to figure out how I can do this in a sports brain. I got an opportunity at the time to do some work with some of our student athletes, which wasn't on purpose, but that was, again, this is kind of newer, where now a lot of these collegiate programs are hiring mental health providers that are focusing on athletic populations. Right. Early performers.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:12:15]:

And so I accidentally got a couple student athletes, and then again, I'm using these languages and using my concepts, and they're vibing. We're doing good with these things. And so I was like, man, I could do this for career, but I didn't know how to do that or where I was going to go, right? And I was looking at counseling site programs, looking at other types of programs, but I really, again, fell in love with systems theory. I fell in love with that concept, and it worked really well for me. And so I began then looking for programs that I think would help me grow as a clinician, but also as a systemic thinker and researcher. And I think Florida State ended up being the best option for me. It was a place I felt comfortable, felt like they, you know, there's a lot of advocacy around at risk youth and there's underserved populations. And it was a place where I feel like they really cared about similar things, similar topics that I also value within myself.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:13:03]:

And then the program director at the time, you end up being also my program or my dissertation chair. I just fell in love with her. And I think the way that she cared for us students and advocated on behalf, and it was very evident and very clear from the beginning that this was the best place for me.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:13:21]:

Such an interesting path from being interested in sex therapy, which is something that's like, you know, unusual, specific, but also to your point, is really an unmet need to thinking about family therapy than getting interested in sports. So you're at Florida State, you graduate, get your PhD. At what point do you make the transition into private practice?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:13:47]:

Pretty much focusing on the tilt end of my doctoral training. And so, of course, as we do in master's programs, as well. You got to have a certain amount of clinical hours to graduate, and, you know, sometimes you do it in the clinic, then there's other opportunities to do some externships and things like that outside the clinic. So my first kind of opportunity to see what that was like was me working in a kind of intensive outpatient eating disorder clinic that also allowed their clinicians to see some community members as well. And so I got an opportunity to work with them and do a. Yeah, a cost share. So they took a certain percentage of the sessions that I would get. I'll use their spaces, I'll get free supervision and that thing to kind of work.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:14:37]:

And so at the time, my supervisor was one of now one of my colleagues, but at the time, was also a Florida state grad, was also doing some instruction and teaching at Florida State. This somebody I really connected with and having a lot of experience in private practice that Todd really helped me just learned kind of at the beginning, like, the marketing steps of what this looks like and how this could be. And it was extremely beneficial and helpful. I think it ended up being a situation where majority class I got was from marketing. Right. And I think I owe it all to my particular supervisor at the time, because something simple as, hey, put a picture of yourself on your cards, right? So people can see it, and then not only see a name, but they remember the face, right. Stuff like that. Just little caveats, things.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:15:22]:

I put this there. You know, you work at that planet fitness, that little card wall. Put it up, put a few your cars there. You know, let's think about wellness. Think about the things that you value and how you want to have that relate to the population that you serve. Right. Just really being more intentional about what is my niche and what do I value and what type of clients do I think is gonna be mutually beneficial so that, you know, even though I have expert knowledge and skills, I can help them, that I feel like I can help them thrive, and I feel motivated to do this on a day to day, week to week basis. And so that kind of gave me my first kind of experience of what private practice could look like.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:15:56]:

But as I transitioned back to UNLV into Las Vegas, kind of in the heart of the pandemic, as I was finishing out that doctoral career or training, I took the jump and I said, hey, I have experience with this before. I think I can do well. I think I can navigate this space. Let's do it.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:16:16]:

So you moved back to Vegas?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:16:19]:

Tallahassee, back to Vegas, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was kind of like that final year of my dao cho training, I was a visiting faculty member. And so sometimes there's options where you can do some research again or, you know, clinically based or academic based. And so in this case, anything to get out of Tallahassee. It wasn't my favorite stop, of all places. It was more of a small town. And I was a young professional, so I wanted to be with other young professionals at the time. And so, you know, being back in Vegas has already spent some time there and had some comfort there and built some connections.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:16:51]:

It just seemed like a good, seamless move for me.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:16:53]:

And you were working as a assistant professor as well, or was that after?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:16:58]:

Yeah, so I was a visiting faculty member, and then I finished my doctoral training within that year. And then there's a assistant professor opportunity open, and I was able to kind of do that, roll into that afterwards.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:17:13]:

And what was that experience like being a professor, having a practice?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:17:17]:

It was a lot. It was a lot. And I think, in part, just, and I think in any spaces, right, when there's not a lot of diversity, sometimes you can get a lot of. There can be a lot of pressure to support and do many things that you may not have the capacity to do. And so it was kind of hard for me to juggle all the things always asked of me in that regard and not always having that full support across the board. But I think to that point, it helped me better understand kind of how I navigate challenges. I could overcome these things. And how can I have a thriving private practice, but also research how to research one high productivity or high research productivity university and supervise and do all these things right.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:18:06]:

Really just helped me figure out how can I navigate and manage many different things on my plate so that all of them don't fall, hopefully none of them, but do so effectively enough that they're all kind of sitting copacetically still.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:18:19]:

What were some other challenges that you faced as a business owner, especially in that first year of private practice, getting your business set up?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:18:28]:

I think really just trusting myself. Right. I think, you know, going from a cost here system as a trainer and then even then thinking that, like, granted, a lot of my colleagues that finished my master's program, they were fully licensed by that time, right. It was three, four years post, but I was working on my doctoral degree, so I wasn't doing a full time clinician. And so then I'm getting ready to start charging, and they're trying to charge a $100 for them to see me in this IOP and this on a clinic and I'm just like, is people gonna pay this, right? They're gonna come see me and then going all the way on my own and being like, yo, you know, based on my expertise, based on my skill set, this is what I should be charging in this market. But, like, somebody gonna pay that, right? They're really gonna come see me and do that. So I think trusting my abilities, trusting in my value, and seeing that through, I think was really the biggest challenge, you know, because sometimes, you know, people may not be able to afford their services and somebody who wants to help and support so many people. And I think that's why I kind of started some of these other channels, right, to reach the people that I'm not going to be able to reach in these different capacities.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:19:31]:

It doesn't feel good to say, hey, like, oh, well, I'm not going to work with you then. Or like, here's some referrals. And so, like, some of those were challenging early on because I also had a little bit of imposter syndrome. Like, is this even worth it, right? This even something I'm able to do? And they're getting their money worth, right, from that standpoint. So that was a big challenge for me kind of early on, for sure. Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:19:55]:

It's so interesting because from my perspective, you have a doctoral degree, right? So baseline, you should be 100, 5200, 250 a session. Right. So your own internal dialogue is very, is very different. How did you overcome that? Was that something that just came with experience?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:20:16]:

Yes, I think a little bit of both. Right. I think one trial and error. Right. And so I think one of the things I did kind of early on, I created these introductory bundles, right? And so as I was building my practice, I kind of viewed it like, as a barber, right? Like my barber. If you want to get it, if you want to get a haircut, you know, he releases the appointments once a week at a certain time. And you got to go get these slots because they're gone. They're gone.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:20:42]:

And if you want to get it cut and you miss a slot, then that's, you gonna have to pay a pretty penny for it. Right. And so I was like, how do I create the demand with my sessions units, right? How many units I want to sell? What does that look like, really kind of coming from that business mindset? And I was like, okay, well, you're starting out, right? So how do you get people in the door? And so what I did was something called an introductory bundle. And I said, hey, if you commit to four sessions. I would discount it. $20 per session. But you just have to pay upfront. But you can have that.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:21:14]:

And you have up to six weeks to finish it, right. In case things don't work to the week to week basis. So starting that out, and then I think doing it, and people like, no problem. And then when it went to my actual regular price at the time, people still being like, no problem. I think it was like, oh, okay, well, maybe this isn't bad, right? Maybe this is something that makes sense. And I think, to your point, I think from the outside lens, oh, you're a doctor, doctorate. You're an expert. But I think one of the things I've learned through school is that, like, the more I know, the more I realize what I don't know, too.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:21:46]:

Right. And so then you recognize you're an expert on this very small piece of knowledge with a wealth of knowledge in the world. And so it kind of fed into that lifelong learner standpoint that, like, you know, the more school I got, the more I realize how much I don't really know, right. And not that I think that that's good or bad or somewhere in between, but I think it further just fed into that timeframe of that imposter syndrome is like, you really don't know all these things. Who got all these trainings and all these certifications, and all you do is got this little doctoral degree. You know what I'm saying? That you said the expert, and they don't even know what your expert are just yet, right. They trying to figure it out, but really just learning through that process that, hey, there's absolutely no things. Right.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:22:27]:

And I think it took some time and some sessions to recognize, like, oh, they're really benefiting from this process and getting some really good feedback about this. Like, oh, maybe. Maybe this does make sense for me at this time.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:22:39]:

I love thinking about therapy and packaging sessions in the same way as a barber. Right. Because as a man, like, that's your context of a service that you pay for, right. And so often in marketing, I encourage therapists to look at other industries. What are other industries doing? We don't have to reinvent the wheel. There's probably inspiration that we can get from sports, right, or from how barbers run their business. Can we steal some of those ideas, or can they inspire the way that we package our services? I imagine some people listening may be thinking, I would never do that. I would never sell a bundle.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:23:18]:

But you can't, as long as you're following your ethical guidelines, and you're not pressuring people into committing to something as long as you're doing it in an ethical way. There's nothing wrong with being innovative and experimenting with not just your pricing, excuse me, but how you're packaging and offering your services as well.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:23:40]:

It was something that I think I didn't see in a therapeutic realm. And so I didn't know what would work, how it would work, but I knew that, for me, I had to do something different, right. Because I didn't have, I think, more time and capacity to do marketing in a different way or to get myself out there because of my other responsibilities. And so I had to figure out a way to get somebody in the door and kind of create some consistency, because I, you know, I'm a firm believer that if you do good work, you know, more will follow. Right. People. People share good experiences if they had good experiences, and so just something, hopefully, to get myself in the door and figure out from there what that looks like.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:24:17]:

There's a therapist I know who does premarital counseling, and that's her specialization, and she offers similar bundles. It's like six sessions or eight sessions. And so you just, like, you sign up for that up front, and there's a, you know, like, a process that she uses for that kind of similar idea. How did you define your niche as you were building your practice?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:24:40]:

I want to say I did two things. It was kind of like a reverse niche, right. Like, what I tried to do was really give. I try to show up authentically as much as I can, right. And I think sometimes that is great to do. Sometimes, like, wait. I wasn't expecting that. I thought, we're just doing formality.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:25:00]:

I thought we're just kind of, hey, how you doing? Not like, hey, how you doing? My day's not the best, right? I'm gonna get this going. But trying to show up authentically, I think what I try to do is market myself authentically as I am. So I try to speak about my experiences growing up, try to speak about my training. I try to speak about the things I'm passionate about and what that looks like and put that on my website. And so I really. I really hope when people read my website or the places I'm listed in, they get an idea of my personality. And so what I always want is people who want to see me because they thought they can connect with me. Right? And if you feel like you can connect with me, there's a good chance you probably can, right? And so I think there's opportunity for us to do good work.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:25:40]:

So kind of like a reverse method there. But I think because of my other experiences and just whether it be in sports or sex therapy or doing couples work or trauma work or some trainings I have, I think it just kind of allowed me to really broaden but also make sense of what this looks like. Right. And so when I think about my niche now, as much as I market myself as a black male therapist, my clients are pretty diverse and all types of identities. But I also want that visualization, that representation, to be there so that maybe those that are unsure, they know there's an opportunity to maybe do some work here. And so I think my niche is kind of with my identities and hopefully creating opportunities for people to connect with me, but also because of my lived experiences and my clinical experiences and my clinical opportunities as well, be beneficial in that regard, too.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:26:37]:

That's interesting. So your brand as The Black Male Therapist is you as a black male therapist. Right. Which is different from, say, therapy for black men, which is about the population that you serve. So it's really about you and your identity. I think that. I've quoted my friend Patrick Cassail on the show before, but he says authenticity is relatability. Right.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:27:03]:

And so if you're authentic, people will relate to you, or they won't relate to you. That's also okay. And I think that if people aren't either in either of those camps, then you're probably not that interesting to anyone. I think there needs to be that kind of line in the sand where it's like, oh, this is a therapist that I relate to. I would want to work with versus not want to work with, because otherwise you're just kind of in the middle.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:27:32]:

Absolutely. Yeah. I completely agree. I was speaking, one of my colleagues, Doctor TM Moseley, is another kind of clinical sports psych doc. And we're having a conversation, and they said, vulnerability is nothing but authenticity with the risk. And it really spoke to me. Right. Vulnerability is nothing but authenticity with the risk.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:27:55]:

When we think about when we're showing up authentically, there's no filters, no masks. We're showing up as we are and who we are. Right. It's risky because we don't know how the other person can perceive it or take that, but nevertheless, we're being authentic. And when you think about therapy, you think about the role that vulnerability plays into it. You gotta be able to feel like you can be authentic. You gotta be able to be in spaces and places where you can do just that. And so really want to show up as my authentic self and hope that I can use that as a catalyst for when patients and clients come see me, that they're able to be damaged, more vulnerable from the start, the get go.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:28:27]:

And I feel like we're able to do that. We have an opportunity to really build genuine connection, and I think that's a callus for growth.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:28:32]:

Definitely. And vulnerability is something that is challenging for a lot of men. So as a black male therapist, modeling that vulnerability and authenticity, I think, gives permission to other men to do the same.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:28:46]:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I was in a. Did something when I was doing some work, the Motor city cruise and Detroit Pistons. We meet with a couple of coaches, coach JD, the boy, and he kind of mentioned that, like, something about having a therapist on staff. It's like a permission slip, right? It's a permission slip that it's okay to have these conversations. It's okay to, you know, have some challenges. It's okay to talk about it and that just accessibility and saying, hey, I'm here.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:29:14]:

I'm available whenever you need me. Not even, like, saying, like, oh, just stop by the office. Like, hey, just passing by. How are you doing to creating that space? Opportunity is permission slip to have some of these deeper conversations that can be beneficial across the board.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:29:27]:

So you mentioned that you were leaving business cards with your picture on them at gyms when you're in Tallahassee. When you get back to UNLV, you're starting your practice, you're posting on social media, you're creating content. How else were you getting clients?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:29:44]:

Sometimes word of the mouth. I think whether it be seeing me on social media or maybe having some connection with me at some point and have a friend or colleague or a family member that's going through something like, hey, I know somebody. I know somebody that can help. I know somebody that I think could be beneficial, and so kind of reaching out that way. And, of course, I think utilizing the inclusive therapists and psychologist days and therapy for black men and therapy for black girls, all those things are good resources as well, to just put yourself out there. I'm not saying that it always kind of comes through, but I think it just really shows the value that you have by allowing yourself to be listed in these other spaces about what's important to you and what you're about. And so I think sometimes people may have family in one area and then see me in another area and be like, oh, he's here again. Like, he must really care about this.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:30:32]:

He must be really passionate about this. So I think in some ways by, you know, putting yourself more out there, more spaces and places that you are looking for the clients that you're hoping to reach, I think you're able to not only want build that credibility about the importance it is to you, but also it gives another opportunity to kind of see your face again.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:30:50]:

How were you thinking about growing your practice at that time? Like, is the goal to, you know, build up your caseload, hire other therapists, expand into a group practice? Or at that time, were you more interested in working in sports and trying to get into that industry? And so the private practice was something that you were doing more on the side?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:31:11]:

I think the last one, the latter, I think I was interested in getting into sports in a different way, but knew that, like, I wanted to keep up my clinical skills because as a professor, I'm teaching, I'm interning, I'm supervising, and I think supervision is a form of that. But I wanted to be in the weeds myself. And so keeping those clinical skills fresh, continue to kind of build that, pursue licensure, pursue certifications and things like that. I wanted to really create that opportunity to do just that. At the time, I didn't think about building more. I just thought about extra income on the side, but also being able to kind of have some direct influence and impact that I think that was going to hopefully be rewarded for me at that time. Because academia can be a lot, right? You're doing a lot. Like, it's not a 40 hours a week job.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:31:54]:

Sometimes it's 60, 70, 80 when you think about lesson planning and grading and everything between. So I needed something that I can grab onto that be like, you know what, I'm doing good work here. Right? And so therapy ended up being an outlet for me to kind of get some of that validation, seeing my clients grow over time. So that's kind of like, what was my point in beginning was that something I just enjoyed on the side, that was opportunity for me to make a little bit extra money. And I think as it continued to grow and continue the things that happen, I realized that this was a really great way to make some extra money. It's a really great way to kind of get some of that validation and hope that you have from working with some of your clients.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:32:31]:

You strike me as someone who is entrepreneurial. The fact that, you know, you're selling merch, you have, you're, like, teaching, you also have the practice. So I imagine it's also about just like, having, you know, multiple things going at once. Probably the variety of that is appealing to you.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:32:48]:

For so long, I was doing multiple things. I think, going through the masters, I was, I was teaching, I was a student, I was a therapist, and I had a grad assistantship, and I was doing work in student affairs. And so I think as I went through all my collegiate years, whether it be undergrad, masters or doc or postdoc, I've always done multiple things at once. And I think that allowed me to kind of feel, made it exciting. Right. And so I think, as you're right, it's a habit of doing that. And so even in a different way, as I kind of graduated and finished all these different programs, it's another way to kind of keep my hand a lot of different pots making infamous impact across those worlds.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:33:30]:

What was the experience like for you getting into sports? So after you finish your PhD program, you're doing the practice, and then you're also wanting to kind of break into sports? You mentioned you had worked with athletes at the collegiate level. We had doctor Alex Auerbach on the show. But curious what that experience was like for you, kind of getting into this new industry again.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:33:53]:

I think 2014 is when I realized it could be a thing. And looking back at like, man, that's a decade now, I'm like, wow, but I think, crazy how quick we grow, right? But I think I realize it was a thing, but I didn't know the best mechanism how to get there. I think even when I was working on my doctoral program and I had an opportunity, kind of working an intensive outpatient opportunity, when I had my own, quote unquote private practice ish on the side of, I was working with athletes, sometimes from neighboring universities around. Right. And so still doing some of that work. And again, I think what was relatable was recognizing that, you know, we do these things for so long, there's life lessons in them, and if you could figure out how to make that translatable, transferable to other aspects of life, it could click so much faster. Right. And so really practicing that we recognizing that, like, yeah, I want to do this at a larger scale.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:34:44]:

And so I started trying to put myself out there and connect with other individuals. I think kind of post matches. I was kind of focusing on that even as I started my doctoral program. I think I met one of the probably the biggest influential people in my sports, early sports kind of therapeutic career by meeting someone who was doing some work at the time with the Detroit Pistons as a kind of a wellness coach and building a relationship with him. And having conversations with him, doing supervision, getting confident, right? And even sometimes he would quiz me or ask me, like, how would you handle this young buck? How would you do this? How you would do that? Right? And he gave me his feedback and really just kind of, like, indirectly training, but also kind of helping me begin to have a mindset that is fit for these different populations across the board. And so, you know, like, I think a young Padawan, eventually, he was like, you ready? Become a Jedi now? And so he must. To his credit, he had some conversations with commissioner, with NBA, and created opportunity to do some work in the NBA G league, and to be the first to do some site support work in that arena as kind of like a pilot program, see if there could be something that's being beneficial that can be helpful for these guys. I think at the time, the NBA level was kind of mandated.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:36:05]:

They had something, right in some capacity, but at the Jesuits level, I think, unfortunately, some of the resources a little bit more scarce, some of those support systems weren't necessarily embedded in their system just yet. And so that was like, that big opportunity. I'm not just only working with players, I'm working within the player ecosystem, right? I'm understanding what the structure looks like, what the day to days look like. How do I show up? How do I navigate my work with other support staff? Right? How do I. How do I intertwine with athletic trainers, strength and conditioning coaches, right? The nutritionist, dietitian, whatever the case may be, really figure out how that makes us all work together. And I think that was extremely valuable, because it showed me a different way of doing therapy, right. Because I think prior to that, people were coming to me because they wanted to, they had some desire. This was the first opportunity I was doing therapy when I was there, and they didn't have to come see me.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:36:59]:

So how do I make this attractive? How do I. How do I help them see the value of what I do? How do I help them when maybe they don't even know what we're working on just yet, or where my direction is, where my thoughts are? Sometimes they're coming to me. Sometimes it's a cars of a conversation. It kind of forced me to look at therapy differently. Unorthodox, even to some extent, because it's not the 30, 45, 50 minutes hour sessions. It's 15 minutes between going from the bus to here, their shoot around, talking mess, and then all of a sudden, hey, check this out. What you think about that? Right? It just really helped me become, I want to say witty. I don't know if that's the right word, but, like, more quick on my toes.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:37:39]:

Right? Like, you gotta be more efficient. You gotta be more effective. You gotta be quick. Right. Because you may not have that moment again. And so really figuring out how to capitalize on those times and those moments, but also, how do you build off of that, right. Because you may not. They may think about it, but, hey, man, doc, I forgot what you told me.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:37:57]:

Right? Or it may be like, hey, you mentioned this, but I'm not thinking this. Right. And so just really, really trying to be more intentional. It was a different challenge every day, every opportunity about how I can support varying needs, varying thoughts, varying wants, varying desires across the board and a player ecosystem where everybody has different parts, everybody has different roles, and how do we all work together? So I kind of started out there with that. Also being said, I've been able to get some opportunities to kind of work in other sports leagues and be a part of different clinician directories and work with players in other capacities as well. And so, again, kind of on an individualistic basis up until the point where I'm doing some work, where I am now through two lane brain and body assessment, doing a lot of psych assessments, working with the NFL Play association trust and former NFL athletes, kind of helping them as a transition out of their time in the league and trying to help them figure out what is the best mechanism supports around them to kind of help them be successful in this next level or this next avenue of their life.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:38:59]:

Oh, that's interesting. So you're working with athletes who are transitioning out of sports primarily?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:39:04]:

Yeah. So this position here, I'm the clinical behavioral sports therapist, and my role is to kind of do some assessments of guys who have now retired or separated from the league. I want to say retire, but I say that very loosely because majority of them don't get, get to retire. They get fired in a lot of ways. And I think it's a tough reality is that one day I had a job, the next day I got cut, I got released, and my livelihood, and things changed. I still can do this. I'm still working out. So I'm doing all these things, but nobody's picking me up.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:39:34]:

And so that's a very, very tough transition. I think a lot of times, because of where they're at, this is vulnerable. They're grieving that identity. It's hard to reach them. Right. And so I think it's a. I love what I'm doing here to kind of help guys this next part of their career, next part of their life, figure out what are the best ways, if they can adjust to this so they can continue to be the high performers that they are, this next journey and this next level of their life.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:40:00]:

I love that as a population to work with within athletes. And I think that just speaks to the opportunity to continue to niche down, right. Because athletes in general are under a lot of pressure. College athletes, 1819 years old, especially if they're basketball, football players, right? On a national stage, playing on national tv, ton of pressure to perform. You get to professional sports and again, under a ton of pressure. I think what's interesting is that professional athletes have the best trainers, coaches, nutritionists, doctors in the world, right? Haven't always had mental performance coaches and therapists. And so I think the fact that that is now becoming part of their treatment team, to me, makes a lot of sense. But then once you transition out of sports, that has to be very challenging, because in professional sports, especially NFL, I imagine NBA, like, when we talk about retirement age, we think about 65, right? But when you're a professional athlete, you're retiring in your mid thirties, maybe you hit 40.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:41:10]:

So, like, you're still pretty young and you've played sports your entire life. So who are you now? And what is, what is that identity? And I imagine that there's a need for that type of support.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:41:25]:

There's a lot of transitions, and, you know, a lot of us go through transitions. But one of the realities is that when you are a professional athlete, you found a way to not only do this for fun, but do this for a business and do this at a very high level. So, you know, you're the 1%, the one percenters of these things. And, you know, when you're navigating outside of your career or your sport, it's like a rude awakening. Like, wait a minute. Like, I'm used to doing this at this high level. Now. What does this mean? I'm gonna try to be the very best dad possible.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:41:56]:

I'm gonna try to be the very best new business person, right? And I think sometimes because of the work that they're doing, they're constantly stimulated. They're constantly, you know, there's stuff happening from all around the world. All around their world, right. At a very high level that uses high level performance. And it's very challenging to kind of go down to some extent or slow down to some extent and kind of, you know, do the normal world reality check thing and be able to kind of function in that way, not too kind of, you know, elevated, but also not a space where you feel like you're not capable to be successful either. So that's a, that's a constant struggle, right? Constant struggle.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:42:38]:

Transitions is also a great thing to name here because, like, the joke I see is like, you know, a therapist talks about who they work with. It's like, oh, I helped, I, people with anxiety, depression, life transitions. Right. Just like very broad. That's not a niche. But like, I help athletes who are transitioning out of sports. That's great. Right.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:42:59]:

And again, another example of just going deeper. I'm curious, you move from Vegas to Tulane, which is New Orleans, correct?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:43:09]:

Yep.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:43:09]:

Yep. So you're, you're in New Orleans now. Are you still seeing clients? Virtually? Are you seeing clients there? How are you thinking about your practice in addition to this full time job that you have?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:43:20]:

So my practice definitely looks completely different. And I think two things to kind of, I think have influenced that. I think, one, the pandemic taught us that we can do this thing virtually. And two, like, recognizes that I'm not necessarily in the same states that all the states I'm licensed in at one time, but one student can support folks. And so I've completely turned my private practice virtually. And so I virtually see all of my clients, all the regard, the only time I see people in person is through our Tulane professional athlete care team clinic, or PAc clinic, as we call it here with the former athletes. And so my private practice has been completely virtual for almost the last year, year and a half, which has been an adjustment, but it's been really cool. I think I was always scared to go fully virtual or fully in person because after getting the benefits of both, I like them both.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:44:10]:

But doing the work at Tulane and having to see people in person I think has been great. But also being able to do my private practice virtually and still connect with my clients across the, across the globe once I'm licensed with them, I think has been great, too. So kind of doing both, which kind of makes some challenges when you think about different time zones and things like that. So sometimes I'm waking up super early, sometimes I'm working super late just so I can kind of accommodate some of those things. But I would have traded.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:44:33]:

You just got approved as a supervisor as well, right?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:44:38]:

Just got licensed.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:44:39]:

Licensed as a supervisor, yeah.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:44:41]:

Yeah. So I've been approved even as I was kind of here in Louisiana, I've been licensed, but I haven't used it yet. Of course, as my time as a professor, I was supervising all the time. And to me, like, supervising is like another client except with a contract, because they're gonna be there until they're fully licensed. Right. And so not saying that that makes me nervous, but I just want to make sure I had the capacity to be supportive week to week for these different populations or different interns that I'm working with. And so now I finally got it for a space where I'm ready. I'm ready to expand, I'm ready to kind of do some of that work.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:45:18]:

But I was kind of waiting to be licensed across all the states as a supervisor first before I kind of.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:45:23]:

Jumped in for listeners who may not be aware, what is the process for getting approved to be a supervisor and offer supervision?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:45:32]:

Every state's different, but I think the biggest thing is, so you have to rather be part of your doctoral degree plan, or if you're not in doctoral studies, you have to take kind of a approved supervision class and course, and through that course, you're learning about kind of the ethics behind it. You're also supervising somebody under a larger supervisor. Right. This kind of isomorphic process of, like, a supervisor supervising supervisees. Right.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:45:59]:

Like, it's just like a final boss supervisor, you know?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:46:03]:

Exactly. Right. And give you feedback, letting you know what you're doing well. And so it kind of starts there, and then once you get that, it's just kind of getting those hours, getting those times, typically can't be able to supervise until you're fully licensed. Right. And so some people can do that class before they're fully licensed. And then after fully licensed, their kind of time kind of goes. And so some states want you to be fully licensed for three years before you can begin doing a supervision.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:46:28]:

And so some states have reciprocity, some states have less, but I think kind of standards kind of. You got to be fully super. You got to be fully licensed to be able to supervise. You got to be able to take that class, certain hours of supervision, teaming hours, supervising other clinicians, see what that looks like before you have the opportunity to supervise.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:46:48]:

I imagine it probably varies, too, by license. So if you're a marriage and family therapist versus a social worker versus a licensed mental health counselor, for sure.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:46:57]:

For sure. And even then, sometimes they allow us to, I say, play with one another. What I mean by that is, like, they allow us to maybe work with LPC and things like that. Maybe different kind of benchmarks need a hit. But there's opportunities that maybe even if you like, hey, I really like this supervisor, but we're not in the exact same field, there may be an opportunity to still work with them and get someone's hours met too.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:47:20]:

It feels like another opportunity, like we were talking about earlier, to have kind of a different income stream for your business. Right. So you have your therapy, you have your supervision work, you know, maybe you're doing coaching or consulting just to kind of mix things up.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:47:33]:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's definitely, definitely another opportunity there.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:47:37]:

As you think about your practice today, what are some challenges that you're working through?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:47:43]:

Time, I think time for sure. My practice is pretty consistent around, I'll say, anywhere between ten to 14 to 15 hours a week. Ten to 1415 clients. I look at them like separate units for every hour that I'm prioritizing those sessions. And so of course there's time. I'm getting calls and because I'm already super busy, I'm not returning them or I'm not able to get back to them as quickly as I would like to. Or when I think about just wanting to do more but sometimes not knowing if they're getting support and wishing I kind of was able to grow my practice a little bit more and have maybe some interns under me to work so we still can make sure we're helping the populations that are reaching out. They're looking for support.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:48:30]:

This is super hard to even just ask. Right. And I think it's, you know, it's really tough to get to a place where you're ready to do therapy and you reach out and then can't get back to the provider or provider can't get back to you or you really, really want to work with them and they're just super busy and it's delaying your healing, delaying your growth. Right. And so wanting to find more ways to capture and keep, but also in a way that doesn't put me in a position to be the sole provider or so supportive within that, but also maybe in a way that allows maybe a group of us to do that, but maybe share some of that knowledge and skills and things across the board.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:49:05]:

That's a great point because even though your practice is smaller, you're still doing, I imagine, a similar amount of admin work in terms of responding to inquiries. It's not like the inquiries are less and even ten to 15 clients is not a small amount like some therapists have four or five and that's kind of their caseload on the side. So you're seeing a decent amount of clients.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:49:26]:

Yeah, I stay a little busy. I'll say I'm a true part time therapist. I think double that would be fool full. Right? And I think that that's a lot. Right. But I truly believe myself as a true part time therapist. But to your point, when people reach out, they don't know that. They don't know that they see a website.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:49:45]:

They see, they see whatever, right? And they're thinking, hey, there's more than one of you that can support me sometimes, right? And I'm saying, hey, it's just me. It's just me. You're reaching directly to me. When you're calling, you're reaching out. And so I say in that process.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:50:00]:

For sure, Doctor J, it's been incredible. We're coming to the end of our conversation to wrap this up. What's one thing that you want therapists to take away from this episode if they only take one thing away, and I know you've shared a lot of really great information.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:50:17]:

I think the one thing I would want therapists to take away from this conversation, especially if they're beginning their private practice or beginning to start that work, I would encourage them to do it. But most importantly, do it the way that fits more sales into who they are. You can be unorthodox, be outside the box. Right. Whatever you want. Right. As Mike saying, like, there's so much. Right.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:50:39]:

And so it's so many different ways that you can do it your way, but do whatever is salient and real to you. And I think it's going to speak to the clients that come see you, the clients that work with you, and it's going to make your job that much more easier, that much more fun. Because, you know, it doesn't seem like you're marketing yourself out of scope. You're marketing yourself in a way that's not sailing or true who you are.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:51:01]:

Well said. I think that ties back to the authenticity we were talking about earlier. For folks who are interested in connecting with you, learning more about your work, where can they find you?

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:51:13]:

The website's that did catch all be all the theblackmaletherapist.com at the bottom, it may have my LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram and stuff like that. You are on social? Like Instagram. It's probably the one I'm most active on is the @theblackmaletherapist. All one word. Theblackmaletherapist. There's still, I do have a Social Media Content Creative Director who's been able to continue to get some posts going and continue posting these good messages.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:51:40]:

Wow, big title.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:51:42]:

I know, man. Listen, listen. They might check this out and go, hey, I need a raise for the title, but they're great. But continue to get support there and kind of continue to put some of these messages. And so I think Instagram is probably the biggest and better best place to kind of reach me for some of these social media things. I will say that in those DM's, I do not necessarily read them, listen to them. They're kind of handling those things. And so if you want to reach me, kind of going through the website may be the best mechanism.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:52:11]:

Great. Well, thank you, sir. Appreciate you.

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Dr. Lawrence Jackson [00:52:14]:

No, man, thank you. I appreciate you. I'm glad you're doing this. Great work.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:52:17]:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Heard Business School, brought to you by Heard, the financial back office for therapists, visit the Heard Resource hub at joinheard.com to support you in your journey as a private practice owner. And don't forget to subscribe on YouTube, Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you in the next class.