Building a Therapy Practice for Asian Americans with Michelle Vo

Michelle Vo [00:00:00]:

In the therapy room, when I'm authentic with clients, they know that I don't show up as a very stoic AI robot, very cool, calm, collected. But they know a little bit about me. You know, I'm not only a therapist, I'm a daughter of immigrant parents. I'm a dog mom. I'm a wife. And I'm dedicated to so many things outside of my career, even though my career is so important to me. So when they see me as human, they want to work with humans. And the more, the more I humanize myself, I think they can see that I can humanize their experience, too.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:00:39]:

This is Heard Business School, where we sit down with private practice owners and industry experts to learn about the business of therapy together. I'm your host, Michael Fulwiler. We live in a time where stereotypes can confine, and so it's essential to reclaim our narratives. Today on Heard Business School, I'm thrilled to welcome Michelle Vo, a dynamic, licensed clinical social worker based in the Bay Area dedicated to dismantling the model minority myth and fostering genuine mental health support. As a first generation Vietnamese American, Michelle brings a profound and personal perspective to her work. She collaborates with and mentors other therapists and organizations to address cultural nuances and destigmatize mental health challenges, which not only fulfills her passion, but is also a profitable income stream. Michelle's journey includes transitioning from hospital work to creating a thriving private practice, all while maintaining a strong emphasis on self care, authenticity, and the responsible use of technology. In our conversation, Michelle covers everything from the importance of inclusivity in therapy to financial advice on becoming an s corporation.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:01:50]:

Here's my conversation with Michelle Vo. Enjoy. Michelle Vo, welcome to the show.

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Michelle Vo [00:01:57]:

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:01:59]:

So excited to have you. Our listeners may recognize you because of your photo on our homepage.

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Michelle Vo [00:02:07]:

I didn't realize it was going to be on the front page. So yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:02:11]:

How does it feel to be the face of Heard?

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Michelle Vo [00:02:13]:

That's a lot of pressure. I'm happy to support heard, and I also feel like we have a good collaborative relationship, so I'm proud to support her, too, definitely.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:02:24]:

Well, we're grateful for you. You've been a Heard customer, I think, since 2021, which makes you one of our early adopters. You've been very generous with your time. You've done a lunch and learn with our team. We've spoken before. I know you've done customer interviews as well, so just want to acknowledge that for your generosity.

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Michelle Vo [00:02:46]:

Yeah, of course.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:02:47]:

I'm excited to dive into your background in this conversation as a first generation Vietnamese American. Before we get to that, I'd love to start with why you became a social worker.

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Michelle Vo [00:03:01]:

It's a loaded question, but I've answered this multiple times before. So I became a social worker because I was interested in working with people. Although I went to a big UC social work master's, program's not really something they advertise to you. So it was something I stumbled upon. So with the help of other mentors and a lot of networking, I figured out, you know, a graduate program that fit best to my needs and social work felt like a really expansive opportunity to learn about working within communities, policy, and of course, my main interests, which is clinical work.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:03:41]:

And that was Michigan.

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Michelle Vo [00:03:42]:

Yes.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:03:43]:

Right. So you picked up from California, moved to Michigan in graduate school. Was private practice your goal?

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Michelle Vo [00:03:52]:

Honestly, I was just trying to survive in the midwest. I lived in the Bay Area, where climate is really predictable. So moving to Ann Arbor, I was just trying to figure out how I can feel like I can fit in with my classmates, keep up with my education, make sure that I got an internship that I could learn a lot from. And it always felt like, oh, I can't believe people do that. My goal is just to get a job afterwards and work within a hospital system so I can support people at different stages of their life, either in the medical side or the psychiatry side. So private practice was like. Felt like years, years down the road for me.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:04:36]:

And why was that? Was it people that you met who were in private practice were older? Was it. It just felt like there were a lot of barriers and steps to take to get to private practice.

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Michelle Vo [00:04:48]:

Yeah, I think that I was just really grounded into what I needed to do first, which was to get really skilled as a therapist, get trained, have exposure. And quite honestly, I think it's also part of my background of having financial stability. Being first gen, obtaining a stable job w two with benefits is a dream. So being able to just maintain one step at a time kept me focused on the current goal. And I think with more time and practice and exposure, it gave me some more opportunities to figure out, like, is private practice something I could be interested in?

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Michael Fulwiler [00:05:31]:

I'm glad you brought that up. I'd love to dig into that. So as a first generation Vietnamese American, how has that impacted your career as a therapist and also your identity as a therapist and the types of clients that you work with?

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Michelle Vo [00:05:47]:

I think it's everything. I think, as I recall, like applying to graduate school, I talked about who I was and how I present in the world and such. I talk about going to graduate school and how I felt like not many people shared similar life backgrounds. Some of my colleagues have family to support them through school or families that are in the medical field or et cetera. And for me, it was, you know, I moved away from my immigrant parents to obtain my education, and I wanted to serve my community, but that also meant that I didn't have the privilege and support to sometimes take care of myself, especially in the mental health system that is somewhat broken or can take advantage of helping professionals. So my Asian American identity, my first generation background, really taught me how to advocate for myself, first advocate for my communities, for therapists to be paid equitably in the field, and how I show up as myself with my clients.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:07:00]:

Did you feel pressure as a first gen to, you know, be successful and take advantage of the opportunity that you were given, that your parents sacrificed so much to move to the United States?

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Michelle Vo [00:07:18]:

I never received pressure from my parents. I think everything I did, they were really proud of me. I did feel that pressure internally. Maybe not at that time. I didn't realize, but I really tried to network, learn, seek mentorship, and asked a lot of questions. And I think that is a part of the pressure as a first gen of, like, how can I make this most? How can I optimize on this opportunity, and how can I make sure that I set myself up for some level of success?

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Michael Fulwiler [00:07:53]:

Can you talk about cultural sensitivity and inclusivity and why that's a, you know, important for therapists, especially if they're working with clients who come from diverse backgrounds.

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Michelle Vo [00:08:08]:

Yeah, cultural sensitivity, inclusion, and competency is really, really necessary. And this became even much more necessary in 2020 with the Black Lives movement and, of course, asian hate crimes during COVID And these are all things that I was kind of weary and paid attention to as a new student, but had a hard time breaking barriers to discuss this with my colleagues. It's important because a therapist is not a one size fits all. A therapist has to know their own cultural background, their own privileges, their own biases, so they know how they present to clients. Clients don't only build rapport with a therapist because of what they say or how they make them feel, but it's also how they presented. When people check my website, before they even meet me, they write, I want to work with you because you mentioned that you're first gen, or I want to work with you because you mentioned what it's like to be a caregiver or to destigmatize mental health in our communities. And I think that cultural competency and having difficult conversations with clients and letting it be known, hey, I'm going to talk about this. I'm going to see you holistically.

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Michelle Vo [00:09:25]:

Lets them also not dismiss some of their own, you know, how they present in the world.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:09:31]:

You mentioned that when clients reach out to you, like they already have a sense of who you are from your website, they also feel like probably that you're speaking to them directly and that's a result of having a clear niche for your practice. A lot of therapists struggle with defining their niche, especially in the beginning. Therapists are taught you need a niche, you need to focus. But it can be hard to define what that niche is. Can you talk about how you defined your niche for your practice?

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Michelle Vo [00:10:09]:

I think that niche piece is a lot of pressure. It's a ton of pressure. I remember as an intern, I asked, what does this mean? It's your specialization. How are you supposed to to know? And how are you supposed to know if you don't try? So for me, my first internship ever was working with postpartum moms. And mind you, I was like 21. I was like, moms working with moms postpartum. I don't know anything about parenting, but my mentor, my supervisor at that time, her name was Kate Bullard, and she mentioned, I think you could be good at this. I was just struck by how much she believed in me or how she saw I could be a good fit.

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Michelle Vo [00:10:50]:

So trusting the process helped me find my niche, giving myself opportunities to learn what I liked, but also what I did not love doing, too. And where I felt like that passion came from was being able to just dive in and lean into uncomfortable opportunities where I might have dismissed myself before. So not only trusting the process is one of it, but I think the inner self work, learning about why you went to the field, what do you want to bring to your community or where you come from? I think all therapists go into the mental health profession to do their own lived experiences and they get inspired somehow or they saw there was a need in the world. And I think that inner self work or that paying attention to that can help people find their niche. With the support and the mentorship, I think it is a lot of trusting the process, giving yourself time and fine tuning your niche with time is okay. You don't have to be a perfectionist and think about, this is exactly what I'm doing. I'm going to do this forever. I'm going to specialize in this.

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Michelle Vo [00:12:02]:

It's going to change, and that's okay.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:12:04]:

I can see having to decide on a specialization when you're new to the field feeling very strange, right? It's like, well, I'm not an expert on anything because I'm a new therapist, so how can I specialize? And I think the point that you're making of looking inwards at yourself and your own experience is like, everyone is an expert on their lived experience and that's a great place to start for folks who are trying to figure out a what that niche could be for their business. Niching down is one challenge that therapists have. What are some other challenges that either you've experienced or you've seen other therapists experience that are going into private practice?

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Michelle Vo [00:12:50]:

There's so many challenges. I think people experience thinking about private practice, and I first think about self doubt or judgment. And some of the comments I may have heard passively was, you know, you're really green. I was like, what does green even mean? I was like, oh, it means I'm new. I see. Okay, I'm actually not green, but yeah, no, I was. I started private practice the moment I got licensed. After I got licensed, I said, I gotta figure something else out for myself.

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Michelle Vo [00:13:26]:

So I, you know, technically I was a green new therapist. So hearing some other things, like you, I didn't start until I was x amount of years in or. Oh, so that must be nice luxury, working with low risk clients, making more money. Okay, so you just gotta get a sense of therapists, at least the field of what we should be doing to help our communities. And I also recall when I mentioned to someone I methadore random, like, oh, I'm a therapist. And they mentioned, oh, what a thankless job. I was like, hmm, yes. And should it stay a thankless job? And I was really critical about all of this because I was wondering, like, am I a bad social worker for wanting to take care of myself? Am I a bad social worker if I want to be paid x amount of, you know, money, take x amount of vacation or take care of myself so I can show up as best as I can for my patients or clients? So that definitely creeps into my head at times.

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Michelle Vo [00:14:31]:

That barrier that I faced, I really had to just counter it with my own north star. Like, why am I here? Why does taking care of myself matter? And why does it not feel good to not take care of myself and show up like a zombie with clients at times? Because I'm so burnt out. So just being able to do the inner self work to know how I matter to my clients, what kind of work I would be proud of, allowed me to take these small, calculated risks to start private practice. But that also comes with fear of failure, imposter syndrome, which I think a lot of therapists can also run into. What if I fall flat in my face? What if I fail my clients? What if I am too green? What if no one comes knocking on my door? No one messages me? How embarrassing. And I think about, wow, okay, at least I tried. At least I tried to put myself out there. I put it my best effort.

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Michelle Vo [00:15:30]:

I did my research. I showed up authentic, and I tried and I tried the best I could. I think that matters. When I started this, I was not ever, like, totally confident that it's going to work out. But I had really great friends and colleagues that just reminded me. Live in the moment. Take real time of your client's feedback and all the sessions that were successful, delightful moments. Recall the graduations you assisted with and take it from there.

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Michelle Vo [00:16:01]:

Take that as data rather than the anxiety brain or the anxiety emotion talking and that holding you back, too.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:16:08]:

There's this narrative in therapy that therapists are told in graduate school that you didn't get in this field to make money. You're in this field to help people. And I think it's so interesting that within social work, it's almost more explicit. My sense is social work. It's even in the code of ethics as a social worker versus maybe being a psychologist or a mental health counselor. It seems it's almost like a different standard. Would you agree with that observation?

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Michelle Vo [00:16:45]:

I can't speak to different ethics of different programs and credentials, but I do remember going to orientation and there was just jokes like, we're going to be in debt forever. And I'm like, that's not cool. Like, I don't want that. I care about, you know, financial security, and I actually need to take care of myself because I have other people and family to take care of, too. And I was a very big advocate on let's not take jobs that are underpaying us and let's kind of show the world the field that we deserve more. And I do agree that, you know, in social work, it is one of the oldest professions out there, and I want to empower social workers that we can be good social workers in many diverse job opportunities and diversify our income that way. Quite honestly, being able to be in private practice has given me opportunities to network and support leaders and to do pro bono presentations and to talk at hospitals and also just to volunteer. I'm not as burnt out.

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Michelle Vo [00:17:54]:

I show up. I'm happy to show up, and I don't feel this kind of stigma that you're bad for taking care of yourself.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:18:02]:

You mentioned that you went into private practice as soon as you got licensed. Can you talk about what that process was like for you? Did you go into private practice full time right away, or did you ease into it?

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Michelle Vo [00:18:17]:

I definitely eased into it. I knew I wanted to just give myself a shot after I got licensed because licensure is like a really big thing. You train for three years or so, take two big exams, totaling the 6 hours each. And mind you, I took the test with a mask on for 4 hours during COVID I didn't even know what was going to happen, but I'm glad I passed. I'm proud of any therapist that passed. And being able to be licensed and have the autonomy to work for yourself and to practice in ways that you want is really an amazing opportunity, and I just wanted to try it. It was a slow process. Not slow in the way that I optimized for Squarespace's two week trial to build my website.

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Michelle Vo [00:19:02]:

But it gave me an opportunity like, hey, let's just do it. It's free. I don't have to put any money down. But it took about a year and a half. I eventually quit my full time job at a large hospital, moved into a 32 hours position, I mean, less than one workday, and started to work on my proper practice in the evenings. So I basically kind of worked two jobs. And slowly I built my caseload to six clients to ten clients, to twelve clients, to 15. Then more people wanted to work with me.

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Michelle Vo [00:19:37]:

I started to develop a small wait list, and life happened. I kept getting blackouts in my home that I think there was a lot of power outages. I was considering, hey, like, I might need to rent something just to work out of. I found something ten minutes away. I signed it, and I said, I guess I'm leaving. I need to build a waitlist. And that was the birth of working solo. It just happened.

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Michelle Vo [00:20:04]:

And it's. I feel very lucky. I feel very. I feel very privileged to have these opportunities. And I also know it didn't come easy. It was leaning into the anxiety, trusting myself, and being open to learning as I go, rather than this perfectionistic view that once I leave, I should have a full pay. Full rate pay. Private practice.

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Michelle Vo [00:20:27]:

I'm not sure if that's realistic for a lot of people.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:20:29]:

You've talked about how you had this document and at the top it said, don't quit your day job and you had just a list of things to do to set up your business. And I love that, how intentional and thoughtful you were about the process. It sounds like you built your caseload over time to the point where you had a waitlist. Looking back, what do you think were some of the keys to success for you for getting clients? And what advice would you have for newer therapists who are building a referral network and trying to get their practice off the ground?

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Michelle Vo [00:21:02]:

I think that building the waitlist took some courage, which was, I'm going to start. Everybody, please let your friends in your community know that I'm taking clients. I'm going to open my schedule to meet and help more people. And I think you don't have to showcase or do a grand opening, that everything is set and you're ready. I think you can show people your journey as you grow your practice too. And this means sharing your practice, your niche, your passion, with your friends, your acquaintances, your ex colleagues, with your current team, if you have that relationship. So that in combination of marketing. So I have a tiny following on Instagram, it's like a thousand people, but I just tried to stick with that.

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Michelle Vo [00:21:57]:

And actually I was able to find some people who were interested in working with me, but not even in California. So, but through these conversation, I was able to kind of refer them to other therapists. I found that could be a good fit me as a therapist, not only for building my caseload, but to make mental health less scary and to connect people with the right therapists or the right specialization for them. And I think if you're genuine about mental health services and what mental health can look like, I think people can tell they want to work with you.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:22:30]:

So you started a waitlist before you started seeing clients?

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Michelle Vo [00:22:34]:

Yeah, like six weeks out.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:22:36]:

I love that idea. Typically when we think about a waitlist, we think about when a practice is full, they're no longer able to take new clients. So then you get on a waitlist. This idea of, I'm starting my practice in six weeks from now. You can join my waitlist and then when you actually open and launch, you have clients who are ready basically, who have basically signed up in advance. So I think that that's really smart.

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Michelle Vo [00:23:04]:

I, well, actually, they put a card down and I already scheduled them six weeks out and it was because of a consultation. I talked to them, I said, hey, you know, you have mild symptoms. I don't think it's clinically necessary to see you immediately or then I would refer you because I'm not available. But I'll be starting in x amount of weeks. Would you be okay with us keeping in contact, keeping your card on file and me securing this? I'll send you all the paperwork and I'll see you. I left my practice, my full time job on a Friday. I started with a full caseload the week after. It was jumping right in in that sense.

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Michelle Vo [00:23:42]:

But at the same time it was really helpful to know that, hey, it is working. My calendar seems to be full, or it seems to the wait list of people actually do want to give me a shot.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:23:53]:

I think just a great example of being creative and innovative in how you think about marketing. As a therapist, starting a waitlist before you launch is pretty typical in tech. Like, oh, you join a waitlist for this new product or this new feature and then once it comes out, your first on the list. So I think that's really great. I'm curious what mistakes you made. Looking back, it seems like you were very intentional about how you set up your business. Were there anything, you know, anything when you look back that maybe you would have done differently or you wish you had no had known?

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Michelle Vo [00:24:30]:

I have two things that popped up in my mind for mistakes. Well, the first one was I was really like focused on scheduling clients and building a full caseload wherever that meant to me. But I wasn't really intentional about how many vacation days do I need to take? What plans do I have? Do I have big events coming up I need to travel for? So being able to plan in advance the days that you may need to take off or might want to take off, and then working backwards on how to keep your schedule consistent within the month so your payroll and your owner's draw look somewhat consistent throughout the year. So that was a mistake. Definitely learned from it. And learning to see clients more flexible times or days to make up for time to be away from the office. The second mistake, I would say, is ceus. So when you're not in an organization, you're not going to be reminded to take your ceus or ceus are not going to be openly kind of offered to you.

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Michelle Vo [00:25:35]:

So there's like about 36 hours at least as a social worker, I need to obtain every two years. And it doesn't sound like much, but it sounds like a lot if you neglected it for a year. So I have some new goals on, you know, continuing my continuing education. Twelve to 14 ceus a year, so I can stay on track and keeping like an excel sheet of all of that, too.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:25:59]:

Planning for time off and vacation is a big adjustment for anyone who goes into self employment, right? Because when you have a w two job, you get PTO and you can just take time off and you still get paid. But when you're self employed, unless you're putting money aside for a vacation or giving yourself your own PTO, you're not going to get paid for that time off. You mentioned owner's draw and payroll, so it sounds like you're set up as an S corporation. How did you figure out that whole process of paying yourself and how much to pay yourself? And as it relates to budgeting for time off and vacation?

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Michelle Vo [00:26:43]:

I chose to be an S corp, actually, because I think I spoke to an accountant. They said, well, you're not gonna, it's not gonna be profitable unless you make x amount of money. And in my head, that was condescending, and I took it personally, and I was like, watch me. So I set up as an S corp. I'm stubborn in that way, but I'm glad I did it. Being an S corp allows me to pay into taxes on the federal and state level, making me feel secure if I needed to take time off for short term disability, if I were ever to plan to have a family. That makes me feel like I'm contributing to my future, but also taking care of myself. With the current tax system as an S corp, how to pay for myself in my salary range changed as I worked, you know, ten to 12 hours, up to 20 hours, up to full time.

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Michelle Vo [00:27:35]:

And that was through research and of course, talking to my accountants at heard, asking, hey, is this appropriate? Does this look fishy? Should I change this? And it just changed with time. And the more that you work, there's a better average on how much your business makes and what is appropriate to take out as an employee, too, and how much money you should technically be keeping for the business for business purposes.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:28:03]:

That's really helpful. I know that I've observed a lot of conversations happening in therapists, Facebook groups, and I've read threads on Reddit about S Corp. And if you're a therapist, you should be an S corp. And I just think it's helpful for people to understand what exactly that means. And also, to your point, what that accountant told you, I mean, in some ways is true, right? Like, it does benefit higher earners, but I not, it shouldn't be communicated in a way of like, oh, you'll never make that much. So you shouldn't be an S corp, right? Because that's coming across in a way.

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Michelle Vo [00:28:36]:

That feels judgmental because I was greener. I probably took it defensively, like, oh, well, I'm working part time. He didn't ask me about my long term goals. And I think coming from your question, the question of what are your long term goals for your business is helpful because there is a lot of, you know, barriers in a lot of trouble from moving from a sole proprietorship to an s corp as well. And for me, it's like, hey, maybe I want to hire someone. Maybe I'll take on some interns. Maybe I do want to go full time and make x amounts. And maybe it's also okay for me to try and see what that would be like.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:29:12]:

Definitely, I want to come back to the idea of authenticity. So this is something we've talked about. I think the way that you show up on your website is appealing to clients and you're not afraid to talk about yourself and share your story. How does that translate to the therapy room and the way that you build rapport with clients during sessions?

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Michelle Vo [00:29:38]:

I think you can tell when you meet someone if they show up as present, as genuine and in the therapy room. When I'm authentic with clients, they know that I don't show up as a very stoic AI robot, very cool, calm, collected. But they know a little bit about me. You know, I'm not only a therapist. I'm a daughter of immigrant parents. I'm a dog mom. I'm a wife. And I'm dedicated to so many things outside of my career, even though my career is so important to me.

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Michelle Vo [00:30:15]:

So when they see me as human, they want to work with humans. And the more I humanize myself, I think they can see that I can humanize their experience, too, because I share about my Asian American background, how Asian American experiences have a lot of dismissive, you know, emotional conversations. I think it helps client learn about, you know, how they can have this feeling of I love and I respect my parents. At the same time, I don't really feel like they cared for me emotionally, even though they cared for me by, you know, putting a roof over my head, feeding me, and how to let these things coexist. As an Asian American therapist, I talk about that because I get it, and I feel like they are able to understand that I'm very welcoming of these conversations, and there's no judgment. I'm not going to pressure things like, you know, no contact with your parents. They're so toxic. Like, do your own thing.

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Michelle Vo [00:31:17]:

In asian cultures, filial piety is really important figuring out loyalty, your family, how can you give back to your elders? So how can that piece of cultural competency come into the room? Is being authentic to myself, my identity, things I don't want to do, things I feel obligated to do, but how to balance what I want to choose to do, and also how I need to take care of myself, too.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:31:42]:

My friend Patrick Cassail, of all things private practice, he has this great quote. He says, relatability is accessibility. And so I think it makes you more accessible as a therapist when you're relatable for folks who are looking for someone who can help them. And I imagine that doesn't just show up in the therapy room. It also shows up on the consultation call if that's something that you offer. And I know a lot of therapists that I talk to struggle with the idea of offering a consultation call because it feels kind of like sales and they don't like the idea of having to sell themselves. So I'm curious, how do you think about that as a therapist, but also a business owner? This idea of sales and, like, how you navigate those types of conversations?

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Michelle Vo [00:32:36]:

I think it's really about a consultation fit and if that fit for your therapy practice over the sales. So I go in being excited to meet someone really grateful that they even just want to have a vulnerable conversation with me. And if I feel like I am a good fit for them, I'll let them know. If I feel like their acuity is higher or they need more specialty care, I'll let them know. I try to go in with my background and consulted in a medical hospital of, hey, I'm here to educate you. I'm going to send you to the right resources. If we're not a good fit, if you are a good fit for me and you want to work with me, I'll let you know my availability. And I think that just really takes off the pressure for the client.

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Michelle Vo [00:33:19]:

It takes pressure off of me and to focus on the goal, which is, hey, I have time. If I can't serve you here, let me connect you to the right person and help you know that therapy doesn't have to be scary or stoic, that it can be warm and curious. And even though it might not work with you, I still care about you. I want you to go to the right place.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:33:38]:

I love that perspective. You talked about CES earlier in this conversation as something that you, looking back, wish you would have stayed more on top of and not put them off, which is a very common experience. How do you think about professional development and seeking out training and, you know, certifications and things like that.

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Michelle Vo [00:34:03]:

I go back to my previous comment about, like, trusting the process that I come from, CBT, DBT, evidence based solutions, focused treatment. And that was because I was trained in the hospital system. But with time, as I worked more with clients in my own kind of business model, it has allowed me to be more open minded to more opportunities like internal family system narrative therapy, to explore more about trauma focused treatment, like accelerated resolution therapy. It makes me curious. So you learn as you go what shortcomings you may have, and you might learn that from consultations and giving yourself an opportunity to do one or two, you know, brief trainings first and see if it's a good fit to then invest in a certification. I think that it takes time to know what your therapy practice kind of personality is like, what kind of treatment, but for me, it's being eclectic. So balancing all of the therapy modalities I do know, letting them know some things I don't know, and most importantly, knowing that connection is most important with clients progress in treatment, knowing that they can trust a therapist, that they confide in their therapist, and that any type of suggestions is really dependent on their own kind of life circumstance, too, if they're doing their homework.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:35:34]:

You talked about this idea of the model minority myth. Can you explain what that means? And also model mindfulness, which is your handle on Instagram, and how that relates back to that?

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Michelle Vo [00:35:46]:

Yeah. So the model minority myth is a terminology rooted in anti blackness and white supremacy. The stereotype generalizes Asian Americans to be model Americans, highly educated, successful, contributing members of society, versus black Americans or the problem minority. So this is all increasing levels of oppression and disparities between communities of color. And model minority myth is damaging because it not only contributes to disparities of communities of color, but it dismisses the Asian American experience. And mind you, Asia is a very large place, and there's a lot of different cultures and backgrounds. So seeing Asian Americans as a monolith is really dangerous because it decreases things like funding towards government programs and appropriate education on Asian American mental health. And it also dismisses Asian American experiences on an individual level.

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Michelle Vo [00:36:57]:

All of my other asian friends seem to be doing okay, everyone. No one else talks about mental health. Maybe it's just me. So it is dangerous because we don't talk about how a lot of positive stereotypes can lead to very severe depression, anxiety that Asian Americans are one of the least likely ethnicities to actually receive treatment. And when they receive treatment, it's at a really high level of acuity because it's been bubbling up for some time. So model minority is something that I always talk about with my clients and how we can disrupt these patterns and normalize their struggles in a more cultural societal lens, and how white supremacy can lead to some stuff like this. And model mindfulness was for me. I decided, what should I name my Instagram head on? Maybe I'll post some stuff.

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Michelle Vo [00:37:56]:

I wanted to just model something else. Outside of modeling minority, I wanted to model mindfulness of myself, my community, and I wanted to have these discussions about internalized racism in our communities, and also how society might dismiss the Asian American mental health experience. Mindfulness, for me, means to be very present, non judgmental of myself, to engage in really in depth conversations about race and culture and our Asian American experience.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:38:30]:

Is this something that you help other therapists and organizations with as well through your consulting work?

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Michelle Vo [00:38:38]:

Yeah, I mean, I work with my old hospitals, so I've spoken to some doctorates to talk about Asian American experience. I've given presentation at smaller companies to talk about mental health and to really just make mental health education really digestible and relatable. When people understand that mental health is not only diagnostic and clinical, that mental health is just like our physical health. We want to be healthy. We need to do things to be healthy, and we also need to know signs and symptoms of anxiety and depression, just like we know signs and symptoms of having a cough or a cold. So being able to just make all of this less stigmatizing and less scary is a part of model mindfulness. And I can tweak that to serving clients of color, serving clients that identify as Asian American or high achieving professionals, or my other work, which is working with perinatal and postpartum mothers.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:39:41]:

How do you manage your own self care and burnout?

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Michelle Vo [00:39:44]:

As a therapist, I would say that working practice has. Maybe I've taken like two sick days while working at the hospital. I was much more sick, not because I was tired or burnt out, but I think it's just the type of the go go go attitude there. Not being able to intellectually kind of slow down at these system levels contributed to burnout. But now self care is working in private practice. It's the lunch that I get to take. It's the consultations with colleagues that I enjoy working with that get me and get my practice, and how we can support each other through difficult case scenarios. Self care looks like being able to work with the people I enjoy working with and working at the pace I enjoy working with self care looks like exercise and scheduling time off and being able to work a half day some days and being really kind of keeping that consistent.

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Michelle Vo [00:40:47]:

Self care doesn't have to look extravagant. Self care is something that has to be consistent, and it really helps regulate not only your emotions, but how you show up in your relationships.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:40:58]:

What are some challenges you're facing today as you're thinking about building your practice now that you're more established?

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Michelle Vo [00:41:05]:

I think some challenges I am being really cautious and considerate of is the mental health industry as a whole and how tech is really taking the opportunity to build helpful apps and resources for clients. But because the pandemic made mental health services really accessible through telehealth and video platforming, this also means that more therapists are contracted to work as 1099 employees. And knowing about contracts like through Uber and Lyft, that sometimes you don't get benefits that you feel like you deserve, or contracts can change at any time, which then disrupts our business model or what we're anticipating for our business. Throughout the year, I'm constantly kind of evaluating my contracts as companies grow and expand, learning about how coaches are marks. It's very accessible and very helpful. But what does it mean for us therapists to either unionize or advocate for our field, our licensure? You know, how to kind of combat that with, of course, capitalism. That's a really big task for me to just consider and think about. But have these discussions with my colleagues is really important.

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Michelle Vo [00:42:26]:

These challenges. I mean, of course they. They make me worried and scared about the future, but trying to learn how to diversify income, but also keep an open mind, you know, private practice works for me now, and maybe I get too lonely. Maybe I want to work on a team, maybe I want to work for a group practice. I want to support other people in a different way, and that's okay, too. So trying to keep an open mind, but also going through the motions as things kind of unravel on their own.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:42:56]:

I really appreciate that perspective. How have you personally integrated technology into your practice? Used Heard. I know. How do you think about like, how you use software and technology as a therapist?

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Michelle Vo [00:43:10]:

Yeah, I think it helps therapists. I think that I find tech to be really cool and exciting because I live in the Silicon Valley, but I want tech to be used for good. And unfortunately, sometimes when things grow very fast, things can pop. So, being careful about how many eggs I put in whatever basket, but always evaluating, like how I evaluated my previous employers of the type of work I am able to provide and I'm excited to be working with a small nonprofit organization that makes mental health journaling and learning about psychoeducationally accessible for people. So I've been able to kind of work with them to build a really aesthetically appealing app that helps individuals label their emotions and recognize, you know, what triggered this and what can I do about this to teach them, like in, inside out too, that all emotions are necessary and important and that we can learn from them. So I think tech is really amazing. It's just really thinking about can therapists be a part of the tech too, especially if it's a mental health platform?

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Michael Fulwiler [00:44:21]:

We're getting to the end of our conversation. We have a final segment called footnote. What is one thing that you want therapists to take away from this conversation today?

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Michelle Vo [00:44:34]:

I would want them to know that wondering if private practice is a good fit for them is conviction enough for them to try. I know that might sound scary, but small steps is really what it takes. Just like we tell our clients that we're watering our seeds, that we're planting, and it takes time. I think taking small steps towards your own autonomy and building a practice you're proud of and that you can show up authentically is not only sustainable for your career and your mental health, but people would really benefit from that. You know, as a therapist, you matter. Your self care matters. The work you do and the communities you serve matter. And I think you should give it a shot.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:45:19]:

Well said. Michelle, thank you so much. I'm so grateful for you. Where can folks who are listening connect with you if they're interested in learning more about the services that you provide?

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Michelle Vo [00:45:32]:

Yeah, they can connect with me through my website, which is michellevolcsw.com. or send me an email at contact@michellevolcsw.com. I work in the state of California and provide services to clients in the state of California, but more than happy to work with not only companies, but other organizations and colleagues throughout the United States. So I hope that this tricks a chord with your therapist and I wish you all well.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:46:00]:

Thank you. We'll put those links in the show notes definitely encourage listeners to reach out to Michelle. Thank you again, Michelle.

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Michelle Vo [00:46:07]:

All right, thank you.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:46:09]:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Heard Business School brought to you by Heard, the financial back office for therapists, visit the Heard resource hub at joinHeard.com to support you in your journey as a private practice owner. And don't forget to subscribe on YouTube, Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you in the next class.