How to Build a 6-Figure Therapy Practice Using Instagram with Kelly McKenna

Kelly McKenna [00:00:00]:

In private practice. If my goal is to work with 15 or 20 people a week, I'm never going to be able to work with everybody.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:00:09]:

This is Heard Business School, where we sit down with private practice owners and industry experts to learn about the business of therapy together. I'm your host, Michael Fulwiler. Running a private practice comes with financial challenges that aren't always obvious at the start. Today's guest, Kelly McKenna, brings a wealth of knowledge on entrepreneurship. Combining her clinical expertise as a licensed clinical social worker with her business acumen from her MBA, Kelly has successfully built a thriving practice using Instagram, where her account @sitwithkelly has nearly 100,000 followers. She also shares insights with thousands of therapists through a second Instagram account, Business of Therapy, and recently launched the Business of Therapy podcast. In this episode, Kelly talks about her transition from nonprofit work to private practice and how she leveraged Instagram to make $250,000 in her first year. She also dives into her business coaching services and the strategies she uses to help other therapists succeed.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:01:11]:

Kelly's insights on marketing, growth and building a practice that fits your personal style are invaluable. I especially appreciate her transparency about finances. Here's my conversation with Kelly McKenna. Enjoyed the Kelly McKenna, welcome to the show.

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Kelly McKenna [00:01:30]:

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here with you today.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:01:33]:

Very excited to have you. I've been looking forward to this conversation since we launched the show. You're the second therapist that we've had on who has an MBA.

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Kelly McKenna [00:01:43]:

Awesome.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:01:43]:

Which is pretty rare.

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Kelly McKenna [00:01:44]:

Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:01:45]:

So I'd love to start there. In researching for this interview, I actually read that you were the first person to get an MSW and MBA from Florida State. How did that come about?

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Kelly McKenna [00:01:59]:

Honestly, I feel like this is kind of a silly answer, but I am like have always been kind of this anxious, overachiever person. So I was in a magnet program in high school and I ended up graduating high school with 39 college credits. And so I kind of like flew through undergrad in two years and I really wanted to have like a full four year experience. And social work is interesting that if you get your bachelor's in social work, it's just one extra year to get your master's versus if you got your bachelor's in something else, it's a two year program for your master's. So I had gotten my bachelor's in social work and I was like, I want to do two more years here. And so I decided I was going to get my MSW and my MBA. And so it was honestly, just like, I think me trying to do the absolute most with the least amount of time, if I'm being totally honest about what really drove me to do it. And on top of that, I really wanted to do nonprofit management.

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Kelly McKenna [00:02:58]:

So I had goals of being, like, a program director one day, of, like, managing a team. And so I thought that that would be really, really helpful. And so it's why I kind of picked that as a dual option as opposed to something else.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:03:12]:

I was wondering about the timeline, because I was looking at your LinkedIn, looking at the years, and I was like, wait a second. She got both her MSW and MBA in two years. Like that.

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Kelly McKenna [00:03:22]:

It was cool, too. They had a dual program at Florida State, and so you basically took out, I think it was one or two semesters of doing, like, each program because they kind of found the overlap between, here's like, some MSW classes and MBA classes that are kind of achieving the same thing. And so that was really cool, too.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:03:40]:

What were some takeaways from your MBA program for you? Like, looking back now as a business owner, was, were there certain things that were helpful for you, whether it was certain concepts or classes that you took?

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Kelly McKenna [00:03:53]:

I mean, I think for me, it was like, just becoming familiar with the business side of things, I think is something that so few therapists really spend any time doing of even just like, you know, bookkeeping and stuff, like taking a basic accounting class was really helpful. I loved, loved, loved, like, the marketing classes and all the case studies they would have us do. And stuff I think was so interesting with just. I think for me, I realized every business is going to have their problems and challenges in an MBA program. You do all these Harvard business school case studies of McDonald's and Coca-Cola and all this stuff, and none of these businesses are without challenges, but what makes them really strong is their ability to think critically and to work through them. And so that's something that I think has been really helpful for me, of just recognizing when stuff goes wrong doesn't mean that this isn't a good idea or the business is failing or something. It's just kind of a normal part of owning a business.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:04:47]:

Yeah, that's such a great point. You don't need an MBA to be a therapist.

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Kelly McKenna [00:04:51]:

Oh, totally.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:04:52]:

It's helpful to have a basic understanding of business.

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Kelly McKenna [00:04:56]:

Right.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:04:56]:

And that's part of our goal with this show at her business school, to provide some of that business education that therapists didn't get in grad school.

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Kelly McKenna [00:05:05]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would definitely, like, there's tons of stuff about, like, capital markets and stuff that I've never used to this day, either in private practice or managing a large team and large budget at a nonprofit. And so I don't necessarily think that therapists need to or should get an MBA, but I think it's so, so important to get comfortable talking about money, looking at money, making financial decisions, and then also marketing, too, I think, is huge.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:05:32]:

Definitely. So you go into nonprofit after grad school. At what point did you start to make the transition into private practice?

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Kelly McKenna [00:05:41]:

So I worked in nonprofits for, like, seven years in New York City, and I started to. I was, like, working mostly in homeless programs. And we got a new grant that we were going to have a team of therapists come on for our agency, and I was going to be in charge of supervising them. And when I was, like, right out of grad school, I was doing therapy. I got my clinical hours to get my LCSW, but I hadn't done therapy, like, at all since then. And so I had a ton of imposter syndrome and was like, how am I going to supervise? We were interviewing really great clinicians, and I'm like, I'm supposed to be supervising them. Like, they're not going to trust a word that's coming out of my mouth. Who am I to know this? And so I decided that I was going to start working at a group practice in the evenings.

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Kelly McKenna [00:06:28]:

Just that way I could kind of be in it with them, kind of freshen up my clinical skills. And so I started to do that. I had one day where I saw clients in person, and then the next day that I was scheduled to come in, Covid hit, and we shut down and went virtual. And so it was like, I think it's a perfect combination for me, honestly, of, I had been like, this idea of, I'm going to go out and, like, start my own private practice or rent an office or something was not at all on my radar, but I was really in the building stage. So I had, like, two clients at the time that we went virtual. And so I was still getting new clients, but kind of on my own from psychology today. I was eating them in my apartment. I honestly felt, like, no affinity towards the group practice owner.

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Kelly McKenna [00:07:13]:

I met him once during an interview, and so I quickly started to question, like, why am I giving half of my revenue to this guy? I had done some consulting work, so I had, like, an LLC in place already and was just kind of like, I'm going to see a few of these clients on my own. And so it did not start at all with plans of kind of making a full transition, but it quickly kind of went that way because I was having so much fun doing it.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:07:37]:

Sounds like it was good timing.

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Kelly McKenna [00:07:40]:

Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:07:40]:

And then you went on to make $250,000 in your first year of private practice, which I want to talk about money and how you talk about money, because I love all. All of that. Yeah, I'd love to just, like, break down now, kind of, in retrospect, like, how you did that, you know, it sounds like you were able to start seeing clients. You're virtual, which is nice. So it's, you know, you don't have to go and get an office. How did you start to expand your practice? Did you, like, have a niche right from the beginning?

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Kelly McKenna [00:08:08]:

Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:08:08]:

What was that process like?

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Kelly McKenna [00:08:09]:

So I guess I should clarify. I made $250,000 my first year in private practice is my first, like, year full time in private practice. So I kind of had a. A year in between where I was still working my nonprofit job and was kind of at the group practice and kind of on my own. And so during that time, my income from private practice was relatively low because we were taking insurance through this group practice. So they paid the practice $90 a session, and I was getting paid $45 a session. And so that still felt like great money in my pocket. Like, it was nice to have, but it was not at all, like, enough for me to quit my full time job in a nonprofit for.

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Kelly McKenna [00:08:51]:

And so kind of, like, building and having some clients on my own, I was still seeing those through insurance, too. And so that was, like, around $100 a session. And that, like, really helped to increase my income quite a bit and made me actually consider, like, is this something I want to do? And when I decided, like, yes, it is, I had the conversation with a group practice owner that, like, I'm done taking any new clients that you're sending me. You know, I'm kind of going to discharge these people or take them with me. He was kind enough to let me transition them to my own practice. And at that point, I decided, I'm going to make an Instagram. And really, my goal was, like, maybe I'll get a few private pay clients. I was honestly even open to insurance at the time, too.

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Kelly McKenna [00:09:35]:

I was just kind of like, if I'm going to really go all in with this and quit my job, I should probably be doing a little bit more of active marketing. And things took off pretty quickly. So I was making also a lot of friends with other therapists on Instagram, which was so fun. And there was a few therapists who I was talking to that were like, hey, like, I'm totally full. This is Covid times. Can I send people your way? And I said, yes. They said, okay. Like, they're not insurance, they're private pay.

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Kelly McKenna [00:10:04]:

What's your rate? And this one woman, Julia, I told her 150, and she was like, I charge, like, dollar 400 a session. I can't send people to you for 150. They're not going to think that you're, like, a good therapist or looking for the best of the best. Would you be open to increasing your rate to 250? I had never had a private pay client. At this point, I'm like, you want me to charge 250 and you're going to send me somebody? Sure, I'll do that. And it was so cool. I had, like, my first dollar, 250 client. And then shortly thereafter, I started getting them on my own from Instagram directly.

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Kelly McKenna [00:10:38]:

And it just really, I think, made private practice so much more sustainable. And the idea that I could earn a ton of money in private practice was, like, much more reasonable to expect than when I was making $45 an hour at a group practice.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:10:54]:

Definitely. It's such a great point you're bringing up. I think when therapists think about being on social media and on Instagram in particular, it's about reaching clients.

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Kelly McKenna [00:11:04]:

Yep.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:11:05]:

And actually, social media is such a great way to network with other therapists.

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Kelly McKenna [00:11:10]:

Totally.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:11:11]:

And if, like, you're just starting out on Instagram, just, like, finding a bunch of therapists, follow them, engage with their content, send them a DM, introduce yourself, build that relationship, maybe jump on a call, they'll start engaging with your content, sharing your content. It's just a great way to build your network, but also build your audience.

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Kelly McKenna [00:11:31]:

And I think it's huge, too, of surrounding yourself with people who are also ahead of where you are. So often I find that therapists, which makes sense, right? Like, they kind of want to talk to people that are in that same shared experience of them, the people who are brand new to Instagram, brand new to private practice, looking for clients for the first time. And that's okay. Like, it's good to have that camaraderie, but that's probably not going to fill your caseload. Right? And so I think also making an effort to put yourself in the room or to get to know people who are established in private practice, because there's so many clinicians, you know, myself included, who are full, who have a waitlist, who have no desire or plan to take on new people and are established and are still getting referrals. And so I think, like, allowing yourself to get to know some people in that stage, too, is super, super important.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:12:23]:

Definitely. I think identifying people who are where you want to be. Right. And so learning from them, figuring out how they got to that place, because you could probably do that, too, right, if you just follow the model.

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Kelly McKenna [00:12:35]:

Yeah, totally.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:12:36]:

So how did that feel to charge $250 a session? Did you have anxiety about charging that, or were you like, oh, this feels like, this feels great.

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Kelly McKenna [00:12:46]:

So much anxiety. I mean, I felt like it would be stupid for me not to. And so I was kind of able to push through that anxiety, but it felt really hard. I mean, at the time, I was still working in a nonprofit. You know, I made six figures in that nonprofit because I was in a senior leadership position. But most of our staff were making, like, $40,000 a year. I was working with people experiencing homelessness, like, as my job. It was just, like, such a different world.

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Kelly McKenna [00:13:13]:

And I think, honestly, the harder part for me then, like, doing the session for 250, was this idea of people knowing I was doing the session for $250. So, like, having my price on my website. I remember when I decided I was going to quit my job. I was going back and forth with my husband for, like, two weeks, and I was like, do I take my rates off of my website? Like, when I tell people I'm quitting, all my coworkers are going to go look me up and they're going to see this, and, like, what are they going to think about me? I was really afraid of, like, what are my parents and my friends going to think about me? Like, I'd kind of built this Persona of, like, you know, I'm helping people that are in poverty. Like, I felt very much like a good person kind of doing that other work. And so I think that it was a big identity shift for me to say, I'm allowed to do this. I'm allowed to work with a different population of people. It doesn't make me bad.

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Kelly McKenna [00:14:04]:

And that there's still other ways that I can give back, be participative in these other communities, too.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:14:11]:

It's easy to look at a therapist who's charging 250 or 275 and say they're making therapy inaccessible. I've seen the comments totally on Instagram. And so I'm curious, like, how do you think about that now? And, like, sort of, what is your mindset around that?

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Kelly McKenna [00:14:30]:

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's always going to be like, something is always going to be inaccessible for people, right? Like, whether you're charging 200, $5100, you know, you're virtual, you're in person, there's always going to be, nothing's going to work for everybody, right? And so, like, when I worked in nonprofits, my job, you know, one, I was serving like 1000 people per year. And so our goal was really to be accessible to a lot of people, and my job was to try and make that happen, right? And so we would send people out to, like, people's homes or to the homeless shelter they were living at. You know, we tried to get, like, additional grant funding to cover stuff that, like, our current grants couldn't cover. And that was kind of our job was to make it really accessible. But in private practice, if my goal is to work with 15 or 20 people a week, I'm never going to be able to work with everybody. And so I kind of have permission to work with the people that work for me. And I think recognizing that not everybody wants that either, right? Like, there are plenty of therapists, you will find them in my comment section who are like, I could never do that. I don't want to do that.

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Kelly McKenna [00:15:39]:

That doesn't feel good to me. And that's great, right? Like, they don't need to do that. And so there will be therapists who want to take Blue Cross. There will be therapists who want to work in community mental health. There will be therapists who want to work in hospitals or inpatient, and that's all good. And therapy in private practice is okay to be inaccessible, I guess, right? There are community mental health agencies, there are nonprofits, there are group practices. There are all these kind of other options. And it's okay if you want to say I want to be like a really highly skilled, really present therapist for people that want that, right?

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Michael Fulwiler [00:16:23]:

Yeah, definitely. No, I think it's a great point. I think that if every therapist was charging $275 an hour, therapy would be inaccessible for a lot of people. But that's just one business model that's okay. And not every therapist is going to want to do that also, just based on the populations that they want to work with as well.

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Kelly McKenna [00:16:46]:

I think, too, like, if in my dream world, right, if every therapist charged $275 a session, I think that insurance companies would be forced to say, okay, we're going to increase our reimbursement rates for therapists and pay them $275 a session, in which case I would happily be in network with insurance. I would teach other therapists how to be a network with insurance like that would become my jam. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with, you know, being in network, but I think that the issue is that there's such a huge discrepancy in pay between therapy and other, like, healthcare professionals. And so for me, that's where I'm like, okay, well, if insurance isn't going to reimburse therapist at this rate, then we kind of have to take it into our own hands.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:17:33]:

The financial burden for making therapy accessible should not be on therapists. Yes, that's like a very strong perspective that I have. And there's also ways to make your services more accessible, even when you're charging premium rates, like using a service like Mentaya, that your clients can take advantage of their out of network billing. And I know that you partner with them. Can you talk about how that works for your practice?

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Kelly McKenna [00:17:59]:

Yeah. So for people who don't know what Mentaya is, it's basically a company that you submit out of network claims through Mentaya. So maybe even let me back up a little bit for what out of network benefits are, in case people aren't familiar. So there's kind of two ways that you can accept insurance. One is where you're in network with insurance, and that means that you bill the insurance company directly. So let's say that I'm in network with United Healthcare, right? I would go ahead and submit that paperwork to United. I would wait for them to pay me for the session, and I would also charge my client whatever their copay is, maybe 20 or $30 at the time of session. And when you're in network with insurance, the insurance company picks the rate.

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Kelly McKenna [00:18:42]:

And that's kind of what, what you see is what you get. You also have the option to be an out of network provider, and people can pick what kind of health insurance plan they want, usually through their employer. And the more expensive ones tend to have out of network benefits. And what that means is that people are able to pick any provider, whether they accept united or not, and that they can pay for the services, and their insurance company will reimburse the client for a portion of the cost. And so that's kind of how I use insurance in my practice. And so basically, after each session, I will go ahead and submit a claim for clients who would like me to via Mentaya. And so that means that I'm sending their insurance company all the information, all the codes that they need, saying that we met and we had this session, and then Mentaya will follow up on the claim. Oftentimes, insurance companies deny claims, and they have to, like, refile and reappeal and all of this to help the clients get reimbursed.

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Kelly McKenna [00:19:40]:

And it's really great because especially for the people who are choosing these kind of more premium health insurance plans that include out of network benefits, they're paying in for this service. Right. And so, you know, I'll speak for myself. I have. I've changed insurance a few times over the years, but my last insurance, I would pay my own therapist 250 a session, and I got reimbursed dollar, 225 per session after I met, like, a $1,000 deductible. And so that was amazing, right? I was paying $25 a session to see a really, really great therapist. And I think that that's just, like, so helpful of helping people to use the insurance benefits that they do have without also compromising what I want to charge for my time.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:20:26]:

It's a win win, right? Like, the therapist gets their full cash rate. The client gets really, like, a discount on that, assuming they have out of network benefits. And then they also have to hit their deductible first as well. And sometimes that deductible can be high, which is tough. And then also, therapists are able to offer sliding scale as well. An argument I've heard for charging premium fees is that because I charge $275 a session, that enables me to offer a sliding skill in my practice where I have slots that are, you know, $100 or $50 a session.

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Kelly McKenna [00:21:03]:

Yep.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:21:03]:

Because I charge those rates, I'm able to do that and kind of offset my income.

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Kelly McKenna [00:21:07]:

Totally. I think that that's, like, a really popular model for therapists. There's also a company called, like, given hour, where therapists can do an hour free of therapy, kind of, like, through a nonprofit, they help coordinate everything. Open path collective helps to kind of manage sliding skills. I think that there's so many options for therapists if you want to kind of provide, like, a lower cost therapy as a way to give back.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:21:31]:

Yeah, I'd love to switch gears a little bit here and talk about your niche.

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Kelly McKenna [00:21:36]:

Sure.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:21:37]:

I've heard you say on Instagram that, like, when someone is looking for a therapist that takes their insurance, like, that's what they're prioritizing, right?

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Kelly McKenna [00:21:45]:

Yep.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:21:45]:

But when someone's looking for someone who, like, really, like, specializes in what they are, you know, trying to work through, or they're struggling with, like, they're willing to pay those premium rates because they're, like, looking for a specialist.

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Kelly McKenna [00:21:59]:

So, yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:21:59]:

Could you talk about how you've, like, integrated that into your practice and how you built your niche?

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Kelly McKenna [00:22:04]:

Yeah. So when I started, I think I had an idea that niching down was important just from, like, understanding marketing, but I wasn't super clear on what I wanted that to be. And so I kind of tried on a few different things that I struggle with myself because most therapists, I think, end up niching down and working with a former version of them or a current version. So my first foray into niching down was perfectionism. And it really, really, really triggered my perfectionism. Like, I was spending probably 4 hours on an Instagram post, reading blog after blog after blog about perfectionism to literally write one sentence about what perfectionism was because I felt like it was so high stakes that I was going to get it wrong. And so I quickly realized, like, that was not for me. It wasn't.

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Kelly McKenna [00:22:55]:

It wasn't working. It wasn't a lot of fun. And so then I kind of started doing anxiety and body image, and that felt, like, much easier for me. I think that those parts of me are a little bit more healed. It felt like, you know, I could understand it more. It also helped that that was something that I talk with my friends about, like, all the time. And so it didn't feel like it was just me, but I kind of had some other experiences with that, too. And I just kind of went for it.

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Kelly McKenna [00:23:22]:

It's like, adapted over time. But I think I also was starting to see therapy clients in the group practice at this time and was really clear about what clients do. I feel really confident helping what clients again, am I starting to feel some anxiety around or imposter syndrome around? I worked with a few moms. I'm not a mom yet, and that felt like a very imposter syndrome to me. So I was like, okay, I know that doesn't want to be my specialty. I did really enjoy. I do work still probably a third of my caseload is teens, but I actually don't market that on Instagram at all. And so that's been kind of fun to do, like, just via networking, but also teens that kind of have those same issues of, like, anxiety and body image.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:24:05]:

Important point you're bringing up here is that it's okay to try out different niches and, like, see if you like it or not and see if it works for you in your practice, and if it doesn't, like, it's okay to change. I think a lot of therapists feel this pressure of, like, I have to define this very clear niche for my business, and that just kind of, like, keeps them from moving forward. And so I think it's okay to just, like, try something and see if you like it.

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Kelly McKenna [00:24:29]:

Yeah. And I think, like, you're going to change over time anyways, right? Like, both. You're going to get more clarity about who you like to help. You're going to get more clarity around, like, what you're excited to talk about all day, every day, online and in sessions. And you're going to change as a person. Right? Like, you know, maybe ten years from now, I feel really confident and comfortable being a therapist for moms. And I'm like, I don't want to work with anybody that's not a mom because, like, I'm not in that life stage at all or something. Who knows? But for now, that's what feels really good to me.

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Kelly McKenna [00:25:00]:

And if and when I change my mind, I can totally, you know, pivot to.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:25:05]:

You were able to use Instagram to grow your practice, like, relatively quickly. Yeah. You now offer a membership for therapists who are looking to grow their practice on Instagram. I'm curious, what are the most common mistakes that you see therapists make on Instagram?

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Kelly McKenna [00:25:23]:

Yeah, a few. One would be the not niching down piece. If you're making really generic content, nobody is going to share it to their stories or send it to their friends. Group chat. They're not going to comment. Right. Like, you need to kind of take a stand with things. And I think that that's why niching down is so, so helpful.

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Kelly McKenna [00:25:46]:

A second piece is, like, bringing your personality into it and, like, letting people see who you actually are. Right? Like, when you think about it, anxious millennial is not actually that niche down. Like, what? Millennial is not anxious. I don't know. Most of us are. But I think that it's like, the way that I show up, the way that I talk about things, that makes it really clear what version of anxious millennial, right. Even with the stuff that I post that I'm doing on the weekend, or I'm talking about my coffee, or the clothes that I'm wearing, or the pop culture things I'm sharing, my clients can see. Oh, I relate to her.

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Kelly McKenna [00:26:25]:

We have similarities in common here because I'm able to show up as more than just somebody who's like, here's three signs of anxiety. Right. And so I think that bringing your personality in is huge, too. Video, I think, is really the best way to do that. Letting people hear your voice, see your face, see your mannerisms. I think that that's huge. And then I would say the last thing is, like, I feel like there's so much chatter in, like, the business Instagram space about how easy it is to make a zillion dollars or to grow your Instagram page or to go viral. And I think that it really does, like, a disservice for a lot of people, and they end up not going as hard towards their goals as they should.

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Kelly McKenna [00:27:08]:

So, like, if you're showing up on Instagram and you're posting twice a week and you're just putting a canva graphic up there, you're probably not going to get clients from Instagram. You're probably not going to make $250,000 your first year. And, like, that's okay if that's what you want. But if you want kind of like, these exceptional results, it's going to require you to take exceptional action, consistent action, it's going to really require effort. And so I think that that's something I see, too, of, like, not wanting to go all in because they're not getting results yet, and then expecting the results to come when it's like, you're not giving yourself enough time to practice enough opportunities to go viral. Of course you're not getting the results yet, you know?

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Michael Fulwiler [00:27:49]:

Right. Yeah. And social media, there's an amount of randomness to it, too.

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Kelly McKenna [00:27:54]:

Yes.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:27:55]:

The joke is I'll spend 10 hours crafting this perfect Instagram reel and it'll get five likes, and then I'll just post something in five minutes and it'll go viral.

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Kelly McKenna [00:28:06]:

That's why I'm a huge fan of spend 15 minutes on every reel and do a lot of them, because if you keep playing your hand, something's going to stick. I posted every day for the entire first year that I started on Instagram. Now I post like, three or four times a week, and that feels much more sustainable. But in the beginning, I really needed a lot of chances to go viral. I also needed a lot of chances to understand what does my audience actually like. I needed a lot of chances to get comfortable on camera and to get less awkward doing it. And so I think showing up with that tenacity in the beginning was really, really important to having that quick success.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:28:44]:

Yeah, I love this. The way I describe it is you just need shots on goals, right? Like, just take shots and then something's going to resonate. There's going to be a topic or there's going to be a format that you're going to get signal back from your audience that this is resonating with them, and then you double down on those things. You're just trying a bunch of stuff. Oh, this thing worked. How can I replicate this? Or how can I post about this topic, maybe in a different way or use a different caption or something like that?

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Kelly McKenna [00:29:13]:

Totally.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:29:14]:

I'd love to unpack each topic that you mentioned. I love what you said about, are people sharing my content?

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Kelly McKenna [00:29:22]:

Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:29:23]:

The advice that I've read on this is, like, before you post something, your kind of, like, litmus test should be, is my ideal client or is my audience gonna share this post?

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Kelly McKenna [00:29:34]:

Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:29:34]:

Is it gonna resonate with them enough? They're gonna share it, and if not, like, you know, it's probably not, like, good enough.

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Kelly McKenna [00:29:42]:

Yep.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:29:42]:

And I think that's such a great indicator, too, because I think we look at the vanity metrics of how many likes did this post get. But actually looking at how many shares your post got or how many saves, especially if it's something that's a little bit more personal, like, oh, maybe this person, they're not going to share on their stories, but maybe they're going to save it.

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Kelly McKenna [00:30:00]:

Yeah. Come back to it later.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:30:02]:

That's a really great way to evaluate that level of signal. And then I think personality is huge, too, right? I think there's this perception of, like, if I join this membership program where we're getting topics, well, like, my content's gonna be like everyone else's content, right? It's just like this template. And now I'm gonna be like the Instagram therapist that's the same as every other therapist on Instagram, but no one else can be you. And so leaning into your own personality.

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Kelly McKenna [00:30:33]:

And I think being so specific in your content is really how you achieve both of those things. So, like, you know, if you are really specific in the tips that you're giving or who they're for or the thoughts that somebody's having or whatever, like, that's what makes them want to share it and feel so seen or so helped by it. And then the same goes with the reels membership prompts. So, like, with the Reels membership prompts. You know, we had one this week that was, I began blank when I started. Dot, dot, dot, and then listing four things. So let me give you some examples that were included in the reals membership. So I began feeling less anxious when I started.

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Kelly McKenna [00:31:13]:

That one's okay, but it's not super specific. Right? I began trusting my partner after infidelity when I started okay. We're getting a lot more specific there. I began feeling like myself again after having my first baby when I started. Right. I began actually loving my body despite its flaws, when I started. Right. And so we can kind of be specific there with what is the thing that people are wanting to feel.

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Kelly McKenna [00:31:38]:

And then you also get to, like, share the four things that you did that helped you to kind of get towards that goal. And I think that this is such a great example of how it can look really different depending on what your niche is. Right. All of those videos are going to be so different. They're going to be so different in the shots that you decide to, like, put of yourself doing, you know, are you drinking a matcha and showing that you're kind of like a wellness girly? Are you. And walking into a gym class? Are you playing sports? Like, there's so many different ways that you can structure that same video and show off your personality, show your clients what they need to see. And so they're really not all the same. It's more just like, how do I give you a structure and a format to put your genius in? And you're basically going to say the same thing.

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Kelly McKenna [00:32:27]:

Is, like, four things to do to feel less anxious, but it sounds so much more appealing if you're like, I began feeling less anxious when I started doing these four things. Right. It just kind of helps to personalize the content a little bit and bring you into it without needing to, like, spill your guts all over the Internet.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:32:46]:

Right. Yeah. And the nature of social media and of Instagram and TikTok in particular is that there are, like, trending audio or there's a trending format. And so, like, jumping on that trend is like, okay, right. Like, you're not just copying someone else's content, which also happens.

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Kelly McKenna [00:33:06]:

Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:33:06]:

And so I think having your own personality or your own take on it becomes important.

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Kelly McKenna [00:33:12]:

Totally. Yeah. And this comes with, like, a trending audio. It comes with set your camera to 2.8 seconds and do this, like, all the instructions that you need to, to actually implement and, like, make sure that you're kind of doing what the algorithm wants. You're being specific enough that your clients want it, and it's, like, easy enough for you to kind of fill in the stuff that we talk about as therapists all day long.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:33:34]:

Sure. For listeners who are interested in the reels membership that you offer, where can they go to find out more information about it?

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Kelly McKenna [00:33:41]:

You can go to businessoftherapy.com reels membership. Maybe we can include that link in the show notes. And if you use the code herdeh, you can get your first month totally free. So feel free to try it out and see how you like it. After that, it's just $37 a month, and you get four reels ideas every single Monday.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:33:59]:

Amazing. Thanks for offering that for our listeners. And $37 a month feels like a steal if you're getting a client a month, at least, from Instagram.

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Kelly McKenna [00:34:09]:

Yeah. And I think, just, like, the time that you save. Right? Like, how long would it take you to plan 16 reels for the month? Quite a bit of time. And so I think even just, like, trading that back for the $37 is so, so, so worth it.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:34:22]:

Definitely. Side note, I'm very jealous that you own business of therapy.

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Kelly McKenna [00:34:28]:

I had to buy it from somebody.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:34:30]:

The domain?

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Kelly McKenna [00:34:31]:

Yeah, it was like, an inactive website, and I had gotten the Instagram handle, but I was like, I want this website before I start posting. And I found whoever it was, and he sold it to me for, like, $500. So very worth it.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:34:43]:

Oh, that's not bad. Well, maybe we'll buy it from you. We can talk offline about that.

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Kelly McKenna [00:34:48]:

Not for sale.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:34:50]:

Something that you also do on Instagram, which I love. And I think this is how I first started following you, was you post your income every month on Instagram on your business page. Could you talk about when you started doing that and why you do it?

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Kelly McKenna [00:35:05]:

Yeah. So I started doing it right when I made my second Instagram page, business of therapy, and I kind of knew that it, like, made a lot of sense for me to do so, maybe even backing up a little bit. The first time I ever talked about money online, I was featured in a Business Insider article, and I pitched Business Insider for this article. But in my mind, the article that I was pitching was about, like, mental health tech therapy startups and how they're, like, a disservice to therapists. And during our discussion, it came up how much money I was making, and I had to send them all the financials and stuff, and they ended up titling this article how this virtual therapist made $250,000 her first year in private practice. And I was like, oh, shit, that's not what I wanted to share with the world. And it was so scary. I had not announced my income to, you know, my friends or my whatever, like, a normal person.

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Kelly McKenna [00:36:08]:

I wasn't running around telling everybody exactly how much money I made, and I got, like, such positive feedback. I didn't have the business of therapy, Instagram at the page just sit with Kelly. But I had started my course and my membership already for therapists, and I had a ton of people join right after that article. It was, like, one of business insiders top performing articles. They did a follow up piece of me, and so I was like, okay, like, people really want to kind of hear about this, but it didn't feel great for me to talk about it on my sit with Kelly Instagram page where I was trying to get therapy clients still, like, I think it's just, like, a little icky to be like, hey, you know, here's how rich you're making me. Yeah. Not the vibe.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:36:50]:

Yeah.

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Kelly McKenna [00:36:51]:

And so when I started my business of therapy Instagram page, I was like, okay, I should probably talk about this. Also, as I was saying earlier, like, that woman, Julia, who kind of pushed me to charge $250, like, if she hadn't even told me that she was charging $400 a session, I would have never dreamed of charging $250. And there was just a ton of examples of other women online kind of showing me what was possible and that really opening my eyes and making me dream bigger. So I knew I kind of wanted to do that for people. And I did, like, my first one I did in January 2023, and it was, like, a top performing piece of content. So I decided I'll do it again in February 2023, top performing piece of content. And kind of to your point about, you know, taking shots on goal, seeing what works, and then doing it again. Like, if I look at my top performing reels, 90% of them are income reports.

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Kelly McKenna [00:37:49]:

And so I'm like, I'm going to keep doing it, you know, until. I was going to say until people don't like it anymore. But I think a lot of people don't like it now. Maybe until they stop performing well.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:38:00]:

Right.

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Kelly McKenna [00:38:01]:

But I know I get so many messages from therapists who do like it and are like, you know, I would have never known that this was possible. I would have never even thought that this was something that, you know, a normal therapist could earn. Thank you. And so, you know, some people really enjoy it, and I will keep doing it.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:38:19]:

I'm remembering now, I think I saw the Business Insider piece, or you had posted the Business Insider piece, and I remember sending it to our social media manager, and I was like, we need to connect with this person because you just don't see therapists talking about finances, and there's all of this just, like, secrecy around it. And I think a lot of shame as well. And at heard we're all about financial literacy and kind of pulling the curtain back on what that actually looks like in private practice. And so the fact that you're actually posting not just what your income is, which in the tech world, there's founders and CEO's who build in public and they'll post their revenue and stuff online, but it's half the picture because it's easy to say I made $250,000 in private practice. But what were your expenses? You didn't actually make that much money because you had to pay taxes.

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Kelly McKenna [00:39:15]:

Totally.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:39:16]:

So the fact that you actually, like, break that down and show not just like, what your total income is, but also like, what your expenses were and where that income is coming from, I think. I think is really cool.

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Kelly McKenna [00:39:27]:

Yeah. I mean, to me, I think it would feel like disingenuous to share the revenue without the expenses just because I think that it's like, it's so misleading for people. You know, when I made $250,000, I don't have the number in front of me, but my expenses were quite low at the time because I was really in a season of hustle. I was doing a lot myself. It was my first year in business. I didn't have a lot of systems, but now, like, I pay my team ten to $15,000 a month because I'm much more in a season of slowing down, like scaling up while scaling back my time. And so, like, I think that that's really helpful to show people that you're probably not going to get to the point of like 100k month on your own. And if you do, that's really not going to be sustainable.

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Kelly McKenna [00:40:12]:

And so kind of not comparing apples to oranges there as well, and just kind of having a better understanding of what goes into running a business like that.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:40:22]:

What I've heard is that if your content on social media isn't making at least someone mad, it's probably boring.

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Kelly McKenna [00:40:30]:

Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:40:31]:

So it's okay to be a little bit controversial as long as obviously you're nothing causing harm anyway.

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Kelly McKenna [00:40:37]:

Totally.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:40:38]:

Right. But, like, there's going to be people who love it and there's going to be people that hate it. And, like, I think that's okay too, because, like, those people aren't for you anyway.

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Kelly McKenna [00:40:47]:

Yeah. One question I found I've been getting a lot lately, too, is like, you know, I've been scaling down my therapy hours a lot as I've been kind of building the second business business of therapy. But I still include my therapy income and my income reports. But it's like one or $2,000 a month now because I have a very small number of clients. And so I get a lot of questions from people, I think, who are finding my page for the first time that are like, you know, you're telling people that they should be a therapist and earn a ton of money, but you're not really making any money doing therapy. Like, you just have to be a business coach to make this. And I think that that's one reason why I always go back to, I earned $250,000 my first year in private practice. Because you can make really good money as a therapist, and just because you do doesn't mean that you have to do that forever.

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Kelly McKenna [00:41:38]:

I can choose and say, this feels really fun and exciting to me, and it's kind of where I'm wanting to spend my time. And that doesn't mean that being a therapist is less profitable or less good or that I'm a bad business coach because I'm not also full time in private practice. And so I just want to give people permission. Kind of the same of changing your mind with your niche, right? You're allowed to change and build and grow. Maybe you decided to start your private practice with insurance, and now you're deciding you want to go private, pay whatever it is. You're allowed to take stock and inventory at any time and say, this is what feels good to me. And so this is kind of like the direction I'm going to move in.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:42:15]:

How do you think about balancing your private practice with your business coaching, with content creation, and how do you manage all of that without burning out?

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Kelly McKenna [00:42:25]:

So it's definitely been like a work in progress over the years. I've not taken any new therapy clients in over like a year and a half. I've not discharged anybody from therapy because I wanted to focus more on business of therapy. That hasn't felt good to me, although I certainly could take that option. But my caseload has just kind of naturally decreased over the years. When I was first kind of started making that transition, I saw therapy clients on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays. Then it was Tuesdays and Thursdays. Now it's just Thursdays.

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Kelly McKenna [00:42:57]:

And so I think having, like, a specific day of the week where I kind of have my therapist hat on feels really good to me. I try and do most of my content on Mondays, but, you know, I'm kind of showing up in stories a little bit every day, so that can be a little all over the place, too. And then the business coaching, the courses, the membership, like, that's really kind of my main focus at this point.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:43:17]:

I'd love to dig into the business coaching. So we've talked about the Instagram reels. Membership is something that you offer. I know you also offer a private practice academy bundle. Could you talk about other ways that you work with private practice owners?

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Kelly McKenna [00:43:31]:

Yeah, so I've helped over 500 therapists, which is so wild in my course, the private practice academy bundle. And that is basically like three courses that are your comprehensive roadmap to building a six figure practice. So the first course is business essentials. And so that's where I kind of take like parts of business school, I guess, and teach people. There's some basic like bookkeeping stuff. I brought in an attorney to talk about, like LLC, s corp, like whatever, all that stuff that's a little over everyone's head, getting your website set up, getting your psychology today, picking your fee, how to use mental, like all that good stuff. And then there is a, like, I would say the meat and potatoes of the course is about 8 hours of Instagram marketing. From everything to how do you like actually tutorial wise, do a real or make a post in canva to more importantly, like how do you actually use Instagram to sell your services? How do you come up with content ideas? How do you collaborate? How do you run Instagram ads to fill your caseload? Like all of that.

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Kelly McKenna [00:44:34]:

And then there's a third course on scaling that talks about things like brand partnerships, coaching programs, hiring an associate, all the different ways that therapists might want to scale. And yeah, there is a vip option for that. That's dollar 200 a month where we do two group coaching calls. There's kind of like a private messaging board where people can ask questions and get feedback. And so that's been really fun. I just started the vip option almost a year ago at this point, but it's been fun to kind of get to actually know the therapist inside of the PPA bundle more and get a feel for where they're at in business and be able to give them, you know, some more personalized support.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:45:13]:

I love that you have different tiers for engaging with you. And so for listeners who are thinking about offering, you know, similar services or expanding beyond one on one therapy, you know, almost creating this like menu of offerings where, you know, you can start at $47 a month with the reels membership, which is like relatively affordable up to this course. And then there's a vip membership. I also know you offer like one on one, even like full day coaching, incentives intensives. I've seen, which is cool for therapists who just, like, want to spend more time with you and dive super deep.

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Kelly McKenna [00:45:47]:

Yep. Yeah. So I see a handful of, like, literally one handful of like, private coaching clients. So I do that in a few ways. I have a few long term clients who I'll work with for six months at a time, and we meet three times a month and kind of have unlimited messaging support and slack in between. And then for more, like short term options, I do intensives, which is like a 90 minutes coaching session virtually followed by four days of slack support, or a vip day, which is a full day. They're so fun of. Like, we meet up at a wework, we do a coaching session.

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Kelly McKenna [00:46:21]:

It's 90 minutes in the morning. We go get a good lunch, you know, kind of talk business, all that stuff, do another 90 minutes coaching session in the afternoon, do something kind of fun and celebratory and then have that week of slack support as well. And so it's really fun to be able to spend a lot of time with people in their business. I love with my one on one coaching clients, whether they're long term or intensive or vip day, like really getting my hands dirty, going deep and like, looking at their sales page together or typing things up. I really love to be in therapist business with them and so it's really cool to be able to do that.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:46:56]:

And I imagine at the high end, it kind of feels similar to the sort of like anxiety of charging 250 or $275 initially, right, for a therapy session, like charging thousands of dollars for coaching. But I also think it self selects for people who are serious about their business and motivated and willing to make that investment. And ideally they're seeing positive Roi, right. Like, you're delivering a ton of value to them.

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Kelly McKenna [00:47:25]:

And I'll typically tell people if they're just getting started, like, you're really, really much better off. Starting with my course, the private practice academy bundle, put it like getting your feet wet understanding this stuff and putting it out there, like. And then when it gets to actual, like, implementation, the nitty gritty refining, that's when I think it makes sense to hire a coach. But, like, it would be a waste of their time. I'm happy to do it, I guess, but, like, I wouldn't want them to pay $5,000 for a vip day and me to sit there and show them how to use canva, right? Like, that's not going to be a really good return on investment. Instead, I would much rather do, you know, you have a full caseload how are we going to scale and create a course and build this out? Or how do we increase the number of people enrolling into your program and, you know, all of that?

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Michael Fulwiler [00:48:09]:

I'm curious. Of the 500 therapists that you've helped through your courses and programs, are there common challenges that you see or questions that they have that you help them work through?

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Kelly McKenna [00:48:23]:

Yeah, I would say niching down is, like, the biggest challenge, and probably what we spend the most time on during vip calls is really helping people with that. Definitely. I would say the imposter syndrome and challenges with, especially if you're already established, like, increasing your rate and kind of changing the way that you're doing things in your practice, I think, can feel really hard for people. And so it's great to have support around, you know, what does this look like? Hearing from, you know, dozens of other therapists saying, I did this, too. It's okay, people are gonna stay. You're not, like, a bad person, I think is really huge. And then I would say, like, time management and figuring out how can I kind of, like, make this Instagram thing work in my current schedule, especially, I think, before people start seeing results, is when there's kind of, like, that biggest tension there of. It does take a lot of time to make Instagram content, and it's hard when to kind of prioritize that when you're not getting clients from it just yet.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:49:24]:

It sounds like it's less actually about the tactical business stuff and more about mindset a lot of the time, for sure.

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Kelly McKenna [00:49:31]:

Yeah, I mean, the business stuff, I feel like, not to chew my own horn, but I did a good job of laying that out step by step by step and then actually having the courage to implement it and take action, I think is where people get a little hung up sometimes.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:49:44]:

Definitely. You mentioned that you have a team that you work with. Who is on your team? What does that look like? When did you start kind of bringing people on board? Curious how you've approached that.

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Kelly McKenna [00:49:55]:

Yeah, so the first person I hired was my sister, and I hired her like, two or three months in. She was in medical school at the time. And I was like, I don't have time to be making these canva graphics. I was, like, brand new to Instagram. I still have my full time job, but I was like, I'll pay you $20 an hour. I wrote what was going in the graphic. I'm like, you design it and send it to me. So she was doing that was kind of my first thing.

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Kelly McKenna [00:50:19]:

And then I hired someone off of fiverr. Fiver. I don't know how you say that word. To write some sit with Kelly captions and some blogs. And for probably my first year and a half, that was my team, so very, very part time support. We didn't, like, have meetings or anything. It was just like kind of, you take these things I don't have time to do. Then after that, I hired a virtual assistant.

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Kelly McKenna [00:50:42]:

Her name is Rachel, and she was a grad student to, like, studying to be a therapist at the time. And she just kind of helped with, like, other random marketing stuff of not at all, like, driving the ship of marketing, but I would be like, hey, can you kind of be an extra set of hands and, like, do these tasks? She's been absolutely wonderful. She's been with me for almost two years now and is now my operations manager. And so she really kind of is like the project manager for my business. So she's kind of giving me my tasks that I have to do every day, kind of like delegating to everybody, making sure that we're on track for things with launches and all of that. And then I have a full time executive assistant who's kind of replaced my sister. She's a doctor now, so she's no longer interested in doing my canva graphics.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:51:28]:

Probably charging more than $20 an hour now.

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Kelly McKenna [00:51:30]:

It doesn't make any sense for me to pay her what she needs to get right, but so my executive assistant does lots of random things now. You know, she helps with emails. She helps with making the canva graphics. She's now kind of like that extra set of hands. She'll take a lot of chats on my to do list and get them kind of 70 or 80% of the way there. And then I kind of, you know, put that final touch out. And so that's been really cool to have full time support. She just came on in May of this year, so scaled quite a bit without it, but it feels really, really nice.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:52:02]:

Typically, when therapists think about growing their business, it's growing into a group practice and hiring other therapists. And so I love that you're presenting this model of like, this is a different way that you can do it totally. You can offer other services, you can offer coaching, have courses, and, like, you still need support and to build out a team, but you're building just a different kind of business. I'm curious, was growing your practice into a group practice ever a consideration of yours?

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Kelly McKenna [00:52:30]:

I had an associate for like, six months. I didn't love it. I think so I hired somebody that was fully licensed, and I had been. When I was in nonprofits, I managed a team of, like, 60 people and felt like my job was just like HR fire after HR fire. So I didn't really want to, like, manage a team again. But I was getting tons of clients from Instagram. I was full. I hadn't started coaching other therapists yet, so I was like, like, now I always refer to people in my programs, and that feels really good to me.

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Kelly McKenna [00:52:59]:

But I was like, why am I sending all these people to others? Like, I should just have somebody on my team. And so I thought that it was going to be, like, that simple of just, like, I'm going to hire somebody. I'm going to send her clients from Instagram. She'll do the sessions. I'll never have to talk to her, and it'll be free money. And that was, like, not the case. I think that she probably could have used some more support with, like, selling and intro calls and client retention and all of that, and just ended up deciding that she could take clients and kind of part ways. I do think, obviously, group practices can be a really profitable model, but they take any income.

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Kelly McKenna [00:53:35]:

It takes investment and work, and that was just not the kind of work that I was really excited and lit up by.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:53:42]:

Yeah, it just goes back to what we were talking about earlier, about finding your niche and trying different things, and you try the group practice model, and if you don't like it, that's okay, too. There's no shame in that, in building a different kind of business. We're coming to the end, unfortunately, of this conversation. Kelly, this has been really amazing. I was excited to chat with you, and you definitely delivered.

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Kelly McKenna [00:54:06]:

Thank you.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:54:07]:

I'd love to know what's one thing that you want therapists to take away from this conversation if they only take one thing away from the last.

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Kelly McKenna [00:54:16]:

From the last hour, I would say, like, sit down with yourself, like, open up a journal or a piece of paper and dream really, really big of, like, if you didn't have to worry about anybody's judgment or what you thought was possible, like, what would your dream practice look like? And then find the courage to, like, try and actually go after that dream, because I think that there's so much possibility and it's going to look so different for everybody. So, like, as hard as it is, like, try and take out the noise of even Kelly says you should be on Instagram to have a great private practice or whatever. Like, what does that actually look like for you? Because there's a zillion ways that you can build a profitable business as a therapist. There's a zillion ways you can structure your schedule and your life. And I think just getting really clear on what that is is going to open up so many doors for you to really build a business that you love, that gives you a life that you love. At the end of the day, that's what I really want for therapists more than anything.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:55:13]:

Well said. Could you share your website again? I know that you had mentioned it earlier, but just for folks who are interested in learning more about the services that you offer.

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Kelly McKenna [00:55:22]:

Yeah. So you can find me on Instagram at @businessoftherapy or my website is businessoftherapy.com. if you listen to this podcast, I would love for you to send me a DM. Let me know what you thought about it and yeah, amazing.

‍

Michael Fulwiler [00:55:33]:

And you have a podcast that's coming out.

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Kelly McKenna [00:55:35]:

Yes.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:55:36]:

As well. By the time this airs, your podcast will be out. So definitely go check that out. That's business of therapy as well.

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Kelly McKenna [00:55:41]:

Yes.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:55:42]:

Great. Thank you so much, Kelly.

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Kelly McKenna [00:55:43]:

Thanks.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:55:46]:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Heard Business School brought to you by Heard, the financial back office for therapists, visit the Heard Resource Hub at joinheard.com to support you in your journey as a private practice owner. And don't forget to subscribe on YouTube, Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you in the next class.