The Importance of Representation in Building Your Therapy Private Practice with Dr. Justin K. Dodson

Dr. Justin Dodson [00:00:00]:

I think what it means to me is that representation is really important and that sometimes many of us come from homes where we have to be the first to do something. We have to be the first in line to make something happen because there isn't a blueprint for us, especially with getting a master's and a PhD. There was no blueprint for me becoming a therapist, owning a practice. There was no blueprint for me. So I think it really just represents how important representation is, how we can have the courage to do something, and that our imagination can really take us the distance.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:00:36]:

This is heard business school, where we sit down with private practice owners and industry experts to learn about the business of therapy together. I'm your host, Michael Fulweiler. Identifying and establishing your niche is crucial for building a successful therapy practice. Today's guest is Doctor Justin Keith Dodson, a licensed professional counselor based in Memphis who specializes in adult men's mental health. A trailblazer in the field, Doctor Dodson was the first black male to obtain a PhD in counselor education and supervision from the University of Memphis. He started his private practice in 2020, right in the midst of the pandemic and has since built a thriving business. Doctor Dodson has been a Heard member since 2023, so I've had the opportunity to get to know him over the last few years and I'm grateful for our friendship. In our conversation, Doctor Dodson shares how his journey from nonprofit work private practice shaped his approach and how he identified identified his niche in men's mental health.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:01:36]:

He discusses the challenges he faced early on, from financial management to client acquisition and the strategies he employed to overcome them, offering practical advice for therapists looking to define their own niche. Additionally, he explains the importance of finding a niche that resonates with your passion and the needs of your community. Here's my conversation with Doctor Justin Keith Dodson. Enjoy. Doctor Justin Keith Dodson welcome to the show.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:02:04]:

Hey Michael, I am so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:02:07]:

We're excited to have you on. You are a specialist in men's mental health. You recently chatted with Clay from Love is blind on Instagram Live, so shout out to Clay if he's listening. Before we get into you as a therapist and your work with men specifically, would love to chat about how you decided to become a therapist. I know when you were in undergrad you actually wanted to be a lawyer. Could you talk about why you changed your mind?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:02:41]:

Yeah. You know, as a kid growing up, people would always ask, what do you want to be when you grow up and I think lawyer is like that default profession that people add because they think it makes you a lot of money. But I was very loquacious as a kid. I was really curious, and I was always trying to problem solve things. So I think that lawyer really fit what I thought I should be doing and what I was good at. And so I did mock trial and studied with that and had a lot of success with it, with traveling, as a high schooler. And then when I was introduced to psychology in high school and in college, it just made sense, because I think all along I was really looking for a profession to use, a gift of talking. And let's just face it, therapists, we don't add and do math very well.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:03:30]:

So me doing anything in engineering with my hands or doing anything with adding or subtracting was really going to be out of the question. So how do you use your gift of being empathetic and talking and problem solving? Oh, there's psychology, there's counseling. Let's look into that. So I majored in it, stayed with the same major all four years, unlike my friends, who were changing majors every year, applied to one graduate school, not the ten that they told us to. Luckily, I got in, and it has just been a journey since then.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:03:58]:

It's funny you say that, because that was exactly my experience as well. When I was an undergrad, I was an english major. I was a pretty good writer. I thought I was a pretty good communicator. So law just seemed like the logical career for me as well. And now I'm in marketing, so, yeah.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:04:18]:

Look at you now, running the show.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:04:21]:

So you mentioned you went to graduate school. You were the first black male to obtain a doctor of philosophy focused in counselor education and supervision from the University of Memphis, which is an amazing accomplishment. You were also the first black male to obtain a master's of science in professional counseling from Lindscomb University. What does that mean to you as a black mandeh?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:04:46]:

You know, as much as I talk about being the first, I think this is the first time anyone has ever asked me, what does that mean to me? I think for me, it is representative of what courage looks like. So if we think about it, black males are not widely represented in counseling. We even know statistically that under 4% of psychologists are black male. And so even when people come to me for therapy, they say, oh, my goodness. Thank goodness I found you, because I've been looking for a black male therapist in some cases. But I think what it means to me is that representation is really important. And that sometimes many of us come from homes where we have to be the first to do something. We have to be the first in line to make something happen, because there isn't a blueprint for us, especially with getting a master's and a PhD.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:05:35]:

There was no blueprint for me becoming a therapist, owning a practice. There was no blueprint for me. So I think it really just represents how important representation is, how we can have the courage to do something, and that our imagination can really take us the distance. Right. There was no plan or person for me to look at and say, oh, this is how you do this. I had to truly imagine my way to it, and obviously, I just didn't sit there and think about it. But, oh, this is what I can think. Well, let me go see how I can make that happen.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:06:05]:

Let me go ask the right questions. Let me stick my head in a room, let me take the test and see what happens. And so I would say that that's what that means to me.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:06:15]:

I've talked to other black therapists who were the only black student in their whole program. They didn't have a professor who was black. Was that your experience in graduate school?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:06:27]:

Absolutely. So where I went, it's a christian school, and so the population was predominantly white, and I loved my experience there. I won't take anything from it. And it was great where I had a good community of friends that really become family. I think that what I noticed is that when I was in class and we would talk about race related issues, everyone would turn around and look at me, and it really felt like this pressure to be the voice for all people of color, all black people, which I don't know if there's a way for me to do that. I can give you my lived experience. I can offer you a perspective, but I can't answer the question every time for the entire race and gender. So I think that that felt very pressurized for me in some spaces.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:07:16]:

Specifically, we're talking about career race related issues and counseling and using spirituality or religion and counseling. I remember those were the classes specifically that I felt. Oh, boy. Now I'm on display with a microphone in my mouth, even though I'm sitting in the back of the room. But even at. Even in counseling conferences, I went to a conference over the weekend. There were only two black men in the room the entire weekend. So it's definitely not uncommon to be one or one of few in a room.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:07:45]:

But I think that that just tells us that we have a lot more way to go in creating safe spaces in creating careers and salaries that equate to the gift and the talent. And giving people a reason to want to seek therapy, giving people a reason to want to be therapists, to provide the service. Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:08:02]:

Could you talk a little bit about why you feel like there isn't more representation of black men in therapy?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:08:10]:

So I think that in general, when we look at the therapist or social work or social services, it's one of those professions where it requires the most education, but it gets paid the least. And then also, I remember one of my first jobs working with adolescent males. I remember one of the boys, he's from inner city Memphis, and he said, well, why do you have this girl's job? And to him, he 15 year old black male, he thought that being a therapist was a girl's job, but I understood where he was coming from, because typically, you've only seen or mostly see women in these spaces, just like in graduate school or studying practicum, internships, education. And so I can't fault him for having that perspective. I think that it happens because therapists aren't paid adequately. People don't know that it's a profession that they can go in. If I've never seen a black man in that position, and I may be curious, I may not think that I have access or the ability to do it. So I think when you stack those factors up, you see less and less people.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:09:11]:

I do think we're going in the right direction, though, and I think that there are a lot of platforms, and I've seen more black male therapists in these spaces, especially on social media. It really shows you who exists in the world outside of what you know. So I think we're trending in the right direction. Hopefully, we can continue doing that. Hopefully we can provide more scholarships and reasons for people to be interested in that, and not just law or medicine or sales and business, but really trying to heal people.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:09:39]:

I love what you're doing to change that narrative, the way that you show up on social media as well. I want to talk about that and the work that you've done in the media. I also want to come back to the fact that you work with a lot of men, and black men specifically as a therapist as well. Before we get into that, I'd love to talk about your journey into private practice. So you graduate from graduate school, and you don't go into private practice initially. You go into nonprofit work, and actually, private practice wasn't even on your radar.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:10:10]:

Right? Yeah.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:10:11]:

Could you talk about that experience and then why you ended up making the switch?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:10:15]:

Yeah. Primary practice wasn't on my radar coming out of graduate school because I had this misconception that it was such an unstable way to live and that you weren't going to have regular income. I also think at that time, coming out of graduate school, you know, nonprofit work, agency work is really that gateway drug for therapists, where that is our entry into the profession, because they are who are at the job fairs when you're looking to get a job, they are who is offering internships. Right. And so if you go with what you're presented with, and it kills two birds with 1 st, you get hours for licensure, and you also get a paycheck. No matter how small that paycheck may be, it's somewhere to start. So I think when I started seeking employment, I had applied to so many jobs, Michael. I was applying.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:11:06]:

I was showing up for job interviews for jobs. I didn't even know what it was for. I was. You called me, I'm going to show up. I don't even know if I can do this. But I had applied, and I lost track of how many jobs I was applying to. And then I got offered a job with an agency that I had interned with previously, and I got the job offered two weeks before I graduated with my master's. And I think at that time, in 2013, my salary was $32,000 to start.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:11:35]:

And believe it or not, at that time, that was high in comparison to the jobs and the salaries that I had been offered. So I went with that because it made the most sense to get me in the door somewhere. So I think therapists go that route because that's what we're presented with, and we may not see what future holds for us. But I'm glad that I went into private practice eventually, and especially when I did during the pandemic, it seems like.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:12:00]:

It'S going into nonprofit work, going into community mental health, or, you know, if you're lucky, maybe you can get a good job at, you know, a group practice. So you mentioned during the pandemic, you made that switch. Was there, like, an event or series of events for you where you were like, I need to start my own business.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:12:24]:

I went into private practice because ultimately, my definition of success began to change. I. So starting in nonprofit work out of graduate school, that's where my threshold for success was. You get an agency job, it's stable. And then the more I got into the work, and I understood the behind the scenes, so I was an intern a direct care staff, a therapist. And then I was called back for an assistant director of clinical services position. So in my mind, this is the pinnacle to success. This is what you want.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:12:53]:

You have the degree, you have the office, you have the title. It makes sense until it no longer made sense. And what I mean by that is, I think what therapists see is that I grew to a place where I saw what was more of what was wrong and bad about the agency and the work versus what was good and right. And then my definition of success became freedom. To be able to fall back in love with clinical work, to do a work that didn't have restrictions based on all of these contract agreements and based on leaders operating from fear. Now, I will say, I don't take anything away from the jobs that I've had. I think I need it. I know I needed them in order to get to where I am.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:13:31]:

I wouldn't be able to work with the healthcare professionals that I work with now, the athletes, the business owners. I wouldn't be able to work with those individuals if I hadn't had those experiences. Because ultimately, that's where I got my grid and grind from. That's where I learned how strong and how assertive I can be. Business entrepreneurship is a completely different beast, but those jobs helped give me some skills that I need in order to sustain here. So I went into private practice so I can really have the freedom and the flexibility, so I can do a work that makes sense to me. I went into private practice because I didn't want to suffer anymore at the job that I was at. It got to a place where I was getting physically ill, just going to work, and so I knew I needed to make a change.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:14:16]:

Did you ease into it, or was it something that you left your full time job and you just decided, I'm going to do private practice full time?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:14:24]:

No. So luckily, and I know everybody has their journey, I eased into it. So I had my job full time. And so what I did, when I decided to open my practice, a friend of mine had done it, and I paid attention to what she was doing because she left her job at a school. And I said, well, let me come over Friday night. I'll get. I'll buy you food, help walk me through the LLC process. So we literally sat on her sofa, probably in the dark, eating food and going through the Tennessee registry to figure out a name to figure out how to pay for my llc.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:14:57]:

And I went home that night with a private practice, didn't have anything, didn't have a client, didn't have a fee. All I had was a name and a document that said, this person is legit. Got my EIN number, and then I used Doxyme, which is a free platform, and I would see clients there after work. So I'd leave my job at 4430 rush home, see a couple of clients during the week, and that's how I eased into it. So by the time I went full time, and I started that in 2020, by the time I went full time in 2022, I only had nine total clients. But doing it part time, that was a lot, right? Because I'm only seeing a couple of people during the week. Maybe you come, maybe you don't, no big deal. Because I have the salary that I'm depending on.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:15:41]:

And so I created a business bank account. I think at that time, sometimes people were cash appping me their payment for therapy, but I eased into it. A few clients a week using a free platform, Doxyme, in the corner of my bedroom, only offering virtual. And then I got to a place where I could rent a space. And when I knew I was going to leave my job, I started taking the preparations behind the scenes to get a better platform, get some documents in order, market myself.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:16:11]:

How did you get those initial clients? Was it just word of mouth referrals? Were you listing your, you know, practice on any directory sites?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:16:21]:

My first few clients when I started practice in 2020 were word of mouth. My friends knew that I had a degree in counseling. They knew that I was good at what I did, and they would say, hey, I know a therapist, Justin, can you see this person? And for years, I'd have to say no, because I've. I thought I was going to go the leadership route in an agency, and I just never entertained the idea of private practice. So my first few clients were because of friends of mine that believed in me and that knew me for years and years that referred people to me that they knew were looking for a therapist. And so when I finally positioned myself to be able to receive them, they just started coming in. So then I realized, oh, from a business perspective, the better of a job you do, the more people will refer someone they know to you. And my first, I don't know, six months.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:17:18]:

And I still continue to have a pretty good percentage of people. I would say half of my caseload, if not more, are due to word of mouth. And then I got a psychology today profile, and then that's when it started to ramp up a little bit, and then I started to connect with other professionals in the field to feel by day. Because one thing about private practice that they don't teach you, it is lonely. It is lonely, especially when you're starting out. I'm going from being around 150 people a day to, you may have a session at 09:00 a.m. you may have another one at six. What do you do with your day? And so I think that that was something that just blew my mind, that how lonely it was, but that's how I eased into it.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:17:59]:

And now I get to be full time, and it's been sustainable.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:18:03]:

Were you working with men initially, or were you working with kind of anyone who reached out? Like, did you turn people away? Did you refer out, or were you kind of just working with any clients that you could?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:18:15]:

So my background is working with adolescent males. So that's where I started in the nonprofit world, and then I worked as a college advisor and I worked at a health science center, working with men and women who were in the health sciences field. When I decided to go private practice, I decided to niche down to adult men only because I considered the young men that I used to work with, they're going to grow up to be adults. Where is their support? And so I wanted to position myself to work with the population of people that I knew well, that I even represented, and that made the most sense for me. So that's how I decided to focus only on adult men when I started private practice, I think a mistake that I made was taking any and everybody that reached out for services, because you're really trying to balance being a helper, and a helper means sacrificing. At least that's what we were taught in a way that you put yourself second. And then I'm also balancing the idea that, well, I need money, and this person represents an opportunity for me to practice my skill and earn money in exchange for it. So I didn't take everybody.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:19:25]:

I think I. I know I turned away a lot of money by not working with women or adolescents, but I wanted to stay true to what I believed in, and I wanted my practice to have some integrity. So when I say, well, no, I only work with this population, I really wanted to hold true to that. And luckily I've been able to do that. And so that's how that happened.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:19:48]:

I think that mindset of I have this potential client reaching out to me if I say no or refer them out, like I'm, you know, leaving money on the table, I think is very common. The reframe reminds of shifter, right? Is like, you know, if this isn't a client that I can really help or serve, then I'm not doing my best work as a therapist. Right. And also that if I am working with clients who are not a good fit for me, when I do get clients who are a good fit, reach out, I can't help them now because I'm full. I think there's a little bit of a scarcity mindset there. I think that's helpful to move away from.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:20:30]:

It's completely a scarcity mindset, and I get it. But I remember, I think one of the things that I've struggled with was setting a fee and sticking with it and also saying no when I did have a bad feeling, or listening to my gut saying no when I knew that I couldn't help them, or saying no when they needed something that I just didn't want to offer. And so I think that that's a, when you're looking at business ownership, especially with private practice, really honing in on what you can do, what you can't do, focusing on what is in your scope of practice, but then also listening to your gut, I always tell my clinicians, you know, within the first five minutes of a consultation call if this person is going to be a good fit for you. And I think when you're starting in business, you're so focused on how do I present myself in a way that they want my product. Right. So from a business aspect, you're really in sales. Whether we want to believe it or not, therapists are in sales. And when I tell people that, they are shocked.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:21:35]:

But truly, my product is trust. My product is helping you solve an unmet need in your life, helping you connect the dots. So I think first, understanding my product, figuring out how to communicate that, and positioning myself where I'm interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me, because I don't want either one of us, client, or myself, to feel desperate to make this happen if neither one of us, or at least one of us, don't feel good about this initial contact.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:22:04]:

I'm glad that you're bringing this up, because I think when people hear sales, therapists especially, it's like, it's a turn off, right, of like, oh, sales. There's this connotation with sales as, like, it's something that is pushy. I think we think about, like, the used car salesman, right? Who's like, really pressuring us to buy something. Yeah, it's cringy. But in reality, sales is about helping people to find a solution to a problem that they're looking to solve. If someone is reaching out to you for therapy, it's about evaluating whether you can help them with what they're struggling with. That's really what sales is. In that context, it's like you're not selling yourself something that they don't need or they don't want.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:22:56]:

It's just evaluating whether it's a good fit.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:22:58]:

And we don't call it a sales call, but our consultation calls are sales calls because I am assessing if I want to work with you based on your presenting concern and your motivation to change. You are assessing if you want to buy my product based on what I'm telling you I can do. If you don't feel comfortable at the end of that call about what I'm offering you, then you're not going to buy the product. And I didn't make a sale. So I think there's really this point of conversion that we want to reach in terms of our KPI, where, all right, if I have five calls this week, how many of those do I want to transfer into a client? When I was starting in private practice, I would trans, I would, most of my calls would become paying clients. And then I got to a point where I wasn't doing that with everybody based on whether it be they decided to go a different way. I didn't take the insurance that they wanted to use. They were really interviewing multiple people and they were waiting on someone else to call them back or I didn't do well that day in the call.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:24:02]:

And it takes time to get that down packed. If you do five calls a day or however many calls a week, eventually you'll get there and you'll practice it and you'll understand what your elevator pitch is and you'll understand your product more. But in the beginning, that is a struggle with now I'm trying to build a business, and that business takes so much connecting with people, building an infrastructure that you had at an agency, now you're trying to build that for yourself. And I'm not saying that to scare people, but the reality is, private practice is a business. And in order to make it work, you have to be willing to go the extra mile, understand the business side of it, because we already have the clinical side. But being a business owner, being a good therapist, is only half the puzzle.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:24:56]:

You mentioned KPI, which might be a term that folks don't know what that means. Key performance indicator in a business, a KPI is a metric or a number that you're tracking. You know, KPI could be our goal, our business goal is 20 consultations per week. Right. So that's like a KPI that you have set and that you're tracking or a conversion rate you mentioned. So we want a 25% conversion rate from free consultation to paying client. Right. So at least five people we need to convert of those 20 calls.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:25:34]:

And I think this is a really important point because a lot of therapists aren't measuring or tracking these things. And a lot of therapists that I talk to who are looking for help with marketing, that's where I start. It's like, okay, well, let's look at the numbers and let's look at the data. And it's like, well, there isn't any data. It's like, okay, well, that's a great place to start. Let's start there and at least establish a baseline. Right. Because you can learn a lot from the numbers.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:26:03]:

If you're doing a lot of calls and clients aren't converting, it could be that the sales pitch, the elevator pitch you mentioned needs work. But maybe it's the type of clients that you're attracting aren't a good fit. And then that's maybe more of, like, a messaging problem on your website, right? Like, maybe your. Your messaging isn't speaking to them. Or maybe if a lot of potential clients, they're not ending up converting because of fees. Maybe your fees and your pricing isn't clear on your website. Right. So there's changes that you can make to try and impact those numbers.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:26:36]:

I'm curious, what are the other things that you're tracking in your business? Like, what are you looking at and how often?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:26:43]:

I am tracking where people hear about my business. So where did they get referred? Was it word of mouth? Was it through a colleague? Was it through Google, Instagram? So I'm really wanting to know where so I can put more investment into that marketing tool. If we converted an inquiry into a paying client, why or why not? I'm tracking. If they didn't convert, what was the reason? Was it because of insurance? Was it because of fee? Was it because of something else? And so I'm also tracking that. And I have a keep a spreadsheet that all my clinicians fill out. Where we're really tracking. Does this person need follow up? And if so, how many follow ups are we willing to offer before we let it go? Because, again, we don't want to be that cringe car salesman. But you do want to make sure that if someone reaches out, I'm also tracking how quickly, are we responding to people? I think one thing that we don't talk about when you're going into private practice, that as much as it is exciting that you're doing something on your own, there is this bit of an anxiety that comes with actually getting the business.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:27:50]:

And I don't know if that's weird for you to hear, but it's weird for anybody to hear. But I remember getting calls in the very beginning, and this is when I was secretly seeing clients while working my full time job. And I would get a message and I would be anxious to call back. But then I realized, well, if you wait too long to call back, when you work your nerves up, you missed that opportunity because someone else has called them back. Because usually when someone is calling you, more than likely you're not the only provider that they're calling. And I do want people to shop around. I do want people to talk to multiple providers to make sure that they get the good fit. Sometimes if you're the only person they're called and they feel great about it, great.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:28:33]:

But sometimes you're calling more than one place to see what you can get, and that's the reality of it.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:28:40]:

What do you think was beneath that anxiety for you in following up with people who reached out?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:28:46]:

I think I was anxious about reaching back out to people in the very beginning because what would it mean if I actually started working with this person? What would it actually look like if I met success in this way? Can you actually sustain this when you put your foot in it? Can you actually go the distance? Because I had never done it before. Right. So it goes back to that. It had never been represented for me. I was trying something completely new. So I think one thing for therapists is to not get so caught up in fear, because fear can paralyze you. But there was no evidence that I couldn't do it. I just didn't have proof that I could, if that makes sense.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:29:28]:

So not getting caught up in fear, calling people back sooner than later, or at least messaging them to make sure that their call has been received. So back then, I think I was using. I was using my personal cell phone. And so now using programs like the spruce app to manage my phone system have been helpful. Now I can track my response in incoming and outgoing calls and text messages. And so it's just looking at the growth of where I came from to where I am now.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:29:58]:

I remember when I started my own marketing consulting company, I was having similar feelings where I built a website, people started reaching out and then it's like, okay, well, what if I can't help them? What if they pay me for my service, and we get into this engagement, and I can't help them? Which is like a totally irrational fear to have. But it's just like, you go to that place of, oh, no. Like, they're paying me money now. I need to deliver, and what if I can't? And that self doubt starts to creep in. Was that similar to what you're talking about?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:30:32]:

Absolutely. I even had for a while, and this was in my first year, I had this, let's call it, anxiety around charging people, truly creating the invoice, having them pay, charging the card, because ultimately, when you were with an agency, you just got a paycheck. That was it. You didn't see the interaction between utilization review or insurance and the contracts and how they paid the agency. You just knew you were going to receive a paycheck twice a month. But there became this, oh, my goodness, I can't believe I'm doing this mentality. But I also think that comes from a scarcity mindset that therapists are trained to have. You're trained to hone your skill and develop a system that can help meet the need for people, and that deserves and requires a fee in exchange for that.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:31:22]:

And so I had to understand that to release the anxiety I had around charging people, because ultimately, this is a two way street. They're expecting me to deliver on a service, to be on time, to be knowledgeable, to be perceptive and experienced, and to meet their need. I am expecting them to be on time, show up, communicate, be prepared to talk, having done that therapeutic assignment, and to ultimately pay. And so, understanding this transaction, understanding what each person was expecting in the relationship, is really important. But to set it up in a way where we're not focusing on the money part, we're focusing on meeting your need from a therapeutic standpoint. And so having those initial conversations in the consultation call, even in that first session where you're going over informed consent, reiterating the fee structure and no show fees and all that, which I didn't have in the beginning, and understanding how important that is, and you being able.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:32:19]:

To sustain your business, I've seen that show up in other ways as well. You mentioned charging a no show or cancellation fee. Even if it's in your policy, a lot of therapists struggle to enforce it. It's like, oh, they didn't make the session. So I just. I feel guilty about charging them or they had something come up at work or in their family. Right. But the reality is you're losing money then as a business owner, if you're nothing, you know, sticking to those policies and then also raising your fees can be a challenge too, right? It brings up some of that money stuff too, of like, oh, if I raise my fee now, the expectation is going to be higher or I need to deliver a better service.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:33:02]:

So now there's all this pressure. Have you experienced that as well?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:33:07]:

I was actually talking to a friend this morning, colleague of mine, where I said, you know, therapists, we will go out and do a training because I did phase one of a training recently and I thought it was a joke, but what I realized is, and I'm not going to name what the training was, but I realized we are willing to invest financially in something that we think will make us better. What if we really just have the gift that we need all along? And so continuing education, conferences, articles, research, all of that is really, really important. And we don't have to get every certification and everything. Because I remember at one point I was saying, well, I need to go get this certification before I can raise my fee. And that is really discrediting what I can already do without that certification. I also think that there is, when we talk about raising our fees, or I'll tell you one thing that was surprising for me, or that I struggled with was actually setting a fee, identifying how much I need, needed to charge in the beginning, how much I needed to charge, and sticking with it. Because what I learned is that when I struggled with setting my fee, that's when I allow people to haggle with me. Now, because of that, I'm not getting paid what I expected or what I wanted.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:34:20]:

And now I secretly am doing this service with an attitude because I know I'm not receiving what I want or deserve. And so I think that there really is this mindset that we have to get into around being okay with setting your fee, paying attention to what the market is doing and what other providers around you are doing, looking at your level of education and experience. Right? So I'm in Tennessee. People aren't typically, from what I know, aren't going to pay, or at least my belief is $500 a session as if we were in other markets. But I do know that I'm really good and my clients know what I bring. And so when I have raised my fee, I was more uncomfortable than they have been. I literally had someone say, Justin, spit it out because I was struggling to talk about a fee change. And my clients said, spit it out.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:35:12]:

I'll pay you whatever. Just get to it. And that was affirming to me because they understand what they're getting when they come into this space with me. And I I think if more therapists understood the power of their gift, that would make a difference in what we're willing and able to do for ourselves. Now, I'm not talking about robbing people, but I am talking about knowing that you deserve to take care of yourself and your bills, knowing that you deserve to go on vacation and to buy something nice and to continue your license, continue your education so you can continue offering this quality service to your clients. It's not just about my bills. It's also going into my business, too. How do I have the right decor? How do I keep it clean? How do I provide other services or having resources like water in my office to offer somebody?

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Michael Fulwiler [00:36:04]:

I love that framing of seeking certification is almost like a coping way to cope with your own imposter syndrome of, like, oh, I'm not a good enough therapist, or, I don't feel confident in my abilities as a therapist. So I need to go get this certification, I need to go do this training when, like, in reality, I'm sure a lot of those trainings are good and can make you a, you know, a better therapist, but you may not need them to be a good therapist.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:36:34]:

Right?

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Michael Fulwiler [00:36:34]:

Like, you're already a good therapist. And it's really about self belief, trusting.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:36:40]:

The degree that you paid and you went in debt for trusting the gift that you have that got you the job before you went into private practice, understanding that it is still a journey and a process, and you don't have to have all the answers overnight. So what I did in the beginning, every month, I would assess what went well that month and what I wanted to change. Every quarter, I would do the same thing. And then every year, I would reevaluate in October and set my goals for the next year. So every October, I'm sitting and I'm planning, what does the next year look like in terms of time off? So I've increased my ability to take time off over the years because let's face it, when you're beginning, you're going to work as often as you can, whenever you can, in order to make the money. And then as I progress, I really said, well, a 06:00 session doesn't work for me anymore. A Saturday session has never worked for me. A Friday session doesn't work for me because I think we go against the whole idea of being in private practice when we're seeing 40 clients a week, when we're seeing 35 clients a week.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:37:41]:

In my opinion, I think the more clients therapists see, the less effective they can be. So I want to remember everything that you talked about. I want to be able to bring it up. I want to naturally know and have this attunement with my clients. And I don't know if I can do that if I don't even know who's talking to me.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:38:01]:

You've grown your practice from what we talked about initially, you had nine clients, became a full time caseload. Was there a certain point where you realized, like, I want to hire and bring on more therapists and build this practice into a group practice?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:38:18]:

Yes and no. And I don't mean to be shady when I answer that, but I've always considered, all right, Justin, you're going to build your brand. You're going to do what you believe in. And I ended up going into this group practice framework because other black males around me wanted to study under me. They wanted to learn from me. They wanted to seek more. So the first guy that I started working with was really because he asked me, and he just called me, and I had been mentoring him for a year, and he said, hey, can I come and do something with your practice? And I said, yes. And then the second person really was a student who became an intern who we've tried it out, and that's the way it's come about.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:39:02]:

I know for a fact when I started this process, I did not have in mind to do a group practice. Five years ago, I didn't think about doing private practice. Right. So I think I've learned in this process that the picture can change, and that's okay. And just because it's not what you thought it was going to be doesn't mean that it's bad. It just means that you're building capacity to do more than what you thought you could do or considered.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:39:27]:

It goes back to the representation we were talking about earlier. Right. Like now, as a private practice owner who is a male, there's other males who are looking to you. Right. And so you can be that mentor that you didn't have when you were in their place. I think that's a really great thing, to be able to give back.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:39:51]:

That is the goal. I think sometimes I can be pretty hard, but in my mind, I'm trying to recreate for them what I've done for myself, and I have to balance not imposing my career path onto them, because mentorship and success could look different for them. So I think when you are honing skills of therapists around you, you really want to pay attention to what they are needing and what they are wanting, because I will give you the blueprint and teach you all day. But if that's not really what you want, then I'm doing both of us a disservice. And these days, time is valuable. So I don't want to do too much or what people say doing the most.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:40:34]:

How do you think about your role now as not just a therapist, but also an entrepreneur? Because I imagine most therapists, they go into private practice. They're just trying to get clients and, like, do good clinical work. You know, they build up the business. Now there's an opportunity to expand, hire other therapists. Now you're working on your business, not just in your business, right. And you get to the level where you are now, where you're also doing speaking and trainings and teachings. And so I'm curious, how do you think about yourself as an entrepreneur, and how do you balance that with being a therapist?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:41:13]:

I think growing up and not having a lot really motivated me to have more. I remember my parents always teaching, my brother and I do better than what we did, have more than what we had. And so I entered into a field where they're telling you actively, well, just be okay with making 40, $50,000 a year, because that's the max. And so I always rejected that narrative because that's not a life that I had imagined and that my daydreaming created. So I think the way that I balance that is knowing what I deserve and what I want and trusting my skill and my ability to get me that, how I balance it. So I have days where I do clinical work, and I have days where I'm not seeing clients because I need to rest. I need to study, I need to do notes. I need a, to connect with other people.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:42:09]:

I need to work on the business. I got to a place where I was only working in it, and what I thought was working on it was really just being addicted to gathering information. So I'm on every podcast. I'm reading the books. I have the audible. I'm going to the webinars, and I'm just collecting information. But I realized I never did anything with the information. So rest in peace to those notes that I took a year ago because I never saw them again.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:42:34]:

And so I realized that I needed to divide my week up. So now I see people clinically on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and I use Wednesday and Friday to do everything else around the business. And also try to rest because, believe it or not, well, probably more believable. I'm exhausted by Thursday, and that's because I've sat with so many people and given what I. Everything I had, and so I have to recover. And so Friday, I try to restore that with connecting conversations with different professionals and using my gifts to do other things like speaking and consulting organizations and coaching other therapists. And so truly not only diversifying the income, but also utilizing my many gifts so I don't stay in this one singular way of business entrepreneurship.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:43:28]:

How do you think about building your brand, your personal brand, and leveraging social media?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:43:35]:

I consider myself old school. So it's a social media, I'll admit, is a struggle for me because I really want to be able to protect and keep the counseling space sacred. And for a long time, I struggle with using social media because I didn't want clients to think, oh, is he talking about me? And I didn't want to disrespect the profession. And I work with people who we really, they value privacy. So not only am I working to be an ethical provider, but I have people that are high profile and I need to value this space for and with them. But I also have to understand that social media is a marketing tool. What I know is that it can't be the main marketing tool. I don't want it to be my only marketing tool, but I think I balance it by trying to create the content.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:44:22]:

When I'm motivated, then one thing that I'm trying to do now, starting now to the end of the year, is really increase my content and do better at it and produce it at a higher level to meet the aesthetic and the brand value that I believe I am. And so I have to think about if your ideal client is a version of you, in terms of some presenting concerns, in terms of their motivation to change, in terms of their career path, their business mindset, then what would I want to see? What would make me say, ooh, yes, that's a product that I want to watch, hear more from. And so trying to translate that into social media, I think, has been a challenge of mine because I really just wanted to be word of mouth psychology today profile. But understanding that as a business owner, using multiple ways to market yourself and to let people know that you're out there is really important. And honestly, I don't really get a lot of clients from social media. I get opportunities for speaking and consulting from social media. So understanding what that market is. And even though I work with adult males, most of my following are women.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:45:31]:

And I understand that that's partially because something I'm doing or not doing. But also there are a lot of women who serve as gatekeepers for the men that I see. So they get to see me and what I do, and they get to say, hey, husband, boyfriend, friend, cousin, brother, go see this person. This is a resource for you. So I understand that that is the way my business has been structured, and I'm okay with that.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:45:56]:

That's really interesting. So are you finding that men typically aren't reaching out for therapy?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:46:04]:

Men do come to therapy, obviously. I have a practice that specializes in adult men's therapy. Men are coming way more than what people think they are. I think that there are some men who, because they're so anxious or apprehensive about the process, that I have received calls from someone on the man's behalf. But as a professional, I always require the client to talk to me and have that initial consultation. That's really important to me because I want to see where you are, what your presenting concern is. I want to hear from you, be able to build rapport. You deserve to hear from me and to decide for yourself.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:46:44]:

Even though his name was given to me, is this someone that I feel like I can build something with and trust? Because therapy is strange. As much as I love it and I'm in it, and I believe this is my purpose, I recognize that asking a stranger to come talk to you about their stuff can be a strange experience. I think it's one where over time, you build the trust, the respect, the love, the intimacy, the safety, the freedom. But you can't do that if you never take the call. You never do that if you never position yourself to be what somebody needs. And I think being a business owner who works in their business and on their business is a way that I can continue to stay in position to be what people need.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:47:28]:

I think that it's changing, and I'm glad it's changing. But as men, when we are growing up, we're told to be tough and, you know, not cry. And that's the message that we receive. Right. And so I could see the perspective of going to therapy and talking about my feelings and, you know, my struggles as being a sign of weakness. Right. Like, I should be tough. I should be able to get through this on my own.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:47:57]:

And so I'm so glad that you are out there in the community and on social media and, you know, having these conversations.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:48:07]:

What I've learned more recently, actually, the more we can provide a quality service and the better experience one of my clients can have, then they get to go and be an advocate and a champion for mental health. They can't do that. If I offer them a sucky service and they hate it, then they're going to talk bad about it to the people around them. And even if I was, if I'm their friend and I'm hearing what they're saying, I'm not going to be motivated to go seek therapy, especially as a man, wherever it hadn't always been accessible to me or I didn't have the freedom to be curious about it. And so I think that doing a consistently good job doesn't mean that you're going to be the right fit for everybody that calls and comes into your office. You may realize after a session or two, oh, this really isn't going to work, and then having the courage and the skill to be able to communicate that. But I think the better we can provide the service, the more we give people an opportunity to speak positively about it, and that just becomes a trickle down effect. Just like talking publicly about what therapy is and what to expect.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:49:09]:

I think the more we can engage people around it, the more we can dismantle this stigma.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:49:14]:

Does that feel like a big responsibility? Like if there's a man who's reaching out for therapy and doesn't have a good experience, and then maybe that's his only experience with therapy, that has to feel like a lot of pressure.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:49:27]:

I feel excited about those experiences because I know, I know what you're now expecting and I know that I can do better than that. I actually feel more pressure when people say, hey, you're really good friends with this person. They told me to reach out to you. I feel more pressure about that because now multiple people are expecting something versus just this one person that may have had a bad experience previously. So I do ask in my consultation calls, what's your expectation of me? I don't think a lot of therapists, they're always clients are always surprised by that question. But I want to know what you're expecting of me because I'm going to tell you what I'm expecting of you, but I feel more pressure when I get the word of mouth referrals, and that's exactly where I want to be. So it's odd to say that out loud now that that gives me more angst than anything.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:50:20]:

What other questions are you asking if you don't mind sharing on those consultation calls.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:50:25]:

So I like therapists, even when I'm coaching therapists to begin doing consultation calls. So first we really want to be mindful of the amount of time that we're offering. Now, I know some therapists charge for their initial session in terms of a consultation fee. I don't charge a different fee for my first session, but for that consultation call, it's complimentary. When I was starting, I was offering a 30 minutes call. A 30 minutes call really turns into a 45 minutes call, and before you know it, you've offered free therapy. So I recognize that I was getting bamboozled. So now I offer a 15 minutes complimentary call.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:50:59]:

Sometimes it goes over a couple of minutes, but that's okay. And so I'm asking what the client goals are or how they want life to be different as a result of therapy. I'm really assessing if they have any active suicidal ideation because I don't knowingly take on clients who are actively suicidal. I'm asking how their preferred method of payment, what that is. Based on what I'm offering, I've learned that people don't really read. So they say, oh, I have this insurance, or I don't know what insurance I have or what is private pay. So I'm educating as well. So I'm asking questions, but I'm educating on what the difference is between private pay and insurance and what plans that I take and expected copay responsibility.

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:51:39]:

I'm also asking where they heard about me as well, and then I'm assessing their motivation. So that's really the spiel that I go down and talking about what they expect from me as well. So I like to stick there and then answer any questions that may have not been answered on my website or through where they've seen me or heard about me.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:51:58]:

That's really helpful and really tactical. We could continue this conversation for hours. I'm sure would love to have you back on the show as well. I do want to wrap this up here just to be respectful of your time. We have a segment on the show here that we call the footnote at the end. So my last question for you is, what's one thing that you want therapists to take away from this conversation today?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:52:25]:

I want therapists to take away from this conversation that you don't do yourself a service, getting caught up in fear and limiting yourself to what you think you can't do. Also want therapists to be aware that private practice and business ownership is a process and it is not completely glamorous. I want them to know that hard work is necessary. You're really working all of the time. And the difference is when you're working for an agency, I found myself working to impress so I can get to the next level. Now I'm working to thrive and to stay in position to be what people need me to be. And so there's a different level of satisfaction when you're working all the time as a business owner versus working for an agency. So that's what I'd want clinicians to take away from.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:53:16]:

Today you have this quote that I've heard you say that your business shouldn't feel like a hustle, but you do have to hustle to run your business, which I think is speaking to what you're saying. Any closing thoughts on that?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:53:33]:

As therapists, I encourage us all to get out of this scarcity mindset. We're babysitting and we are doing taxes and we are a therapist and we're doing all these different things just to skate by truly focusing on your niche and figure out who you get the most energy from seeing and who you think you can help the most and then also paying attention to what you need. Only look at a couple of people that are doing what you want to do. In the world of social media, we can get so lost and caught up at looking at any and everybody when everybody doesn't represent what our brand is and what feels good to us. I think when therapists realize you are a brand, that's where it starts. You are your own brand and you're picking and choosing what other people are doing to add to what you want to create.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:54:20]:

Love that Doctor Dodson, where can folks connect with you if they're interested in learning more about the services that you offer?

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Dr. Justin Dodson [00:54:27]:

Absolutely. So I love to engage with people on social media, so follow me on Instagram Keith and people can visit our website at navigatingcourage cac.com to learn about our services, to book a free consultation call and to pay attention to social media. To look at all the great things that we have going on and some upcoming things that we will have rolling out.

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Michael Fulwiler [00:54:52]:

Amazing. We'll drop those links in the show notes Doctor Dodson, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for listening to this episode of Heard Business School brought to you by Heard, the financial back office. For therapists, visit the Heard Resource Hub at joinheard.com to support you in your journey as a private practice owner. And don't forget to subscribe on YouTube, Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you in the next class.